Turning Point UK / TPUK WTAF?

[Sasaferrato]

I mean Sasaferrato and Marty1 have you got any evidence at all to support your your claims that:

1/ Education is dominated by those with a Left-wing bias?

2/ Education can, or should, be neutral and empty of political opinion?

Anything?

Firstly, show me where I said that education is dominated by left wing bias.

Yes, education should not be guided by the political view of the educator. If that isn't the case, I take it you would have no problem with your child's teacher teaching BNP 'values'? Or is bias only acceptable if it is left bias?

 

[SpineyNorman]

What about the inherent unexamined right wing bias in economics?

The biases of social scientists are always made clear, the same cannot be said of economists.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Marty1, Sasaferrato it's a great disgrace for education in the uk that you are utterly ignorant of the way the conservative party has treated education, with for example the effective prohibition of teaching about homosexuality under the famous clause 28 or the introduction of the national curriculum in 1988.

so you have two choices.

educate yourselves and join in the debate with some knowledge to offer, or stfu you ignorant twats.

Be civil or fuck off. Your choice.

 

[Sasaferrato]

You think teaching and learning can be neutral?

Of course it can, provided the educator has no agenda to drive forward.

The majority of subjects have no natural political input anyway, so if there is any it is contrived.

 

[Pickman's model]

Be civil or fuck off. Your choice.

be informed or fuck off: your choice.

 

[Sasaferrato]

What about the inherent unexamined right wing bias in economics?

The biases of social scientists are always made clear, the same cannot be said of economists.

I'm not at all sure where I stand on economists as a group. They have signally failed to spot financial storms coming down the road. Presumably they were aware of the sub-prime scandal, but either kept quiet or agreed. Doesn't give yo a lot of confidence in them as a group.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course it can, provided the educator has no agenda to drive forward.

The majority of subjects have no natural political input anyway, so if there is any it is contrived.

how do you know what's in each subject? english literature's inherently political, as anyone who has read 'oliver twist', for example, can tell you. history's the subject most obviously driven by government policies. but what people are (and what people aren't) taught at school is largely determined by a political body - namely the government of the day. the teacher in a school rarely has the latitude to interject their own views being as they've got to spend so much time delivering what's in the nc

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not at all sure where I stand on economists as a group. They have signally failed to spot financial storms coming down the road. Presumably they were aware of the sub-prime scandal, but either kept quiet or agreed. Doesn't give yo a lot of confidence in them as a group.

a major bias among economists is that the current system has something going for it

 

[Sasaferrato]

be informed or fuck off: your choice.

Sorry, but you are falling into the trap of considering your opinion to be fact. A common left wing delusion.

 

[Marty1]

.

I was going to reply with a 'smiley', but it isn't appropriate, because you have a valid point. Both extremes are repugnant.

Thankfully, British political view is set in the 'middle third' of the spectrum, we have never done extremist politics to any degree. Unfortunately, Labour has fucked itself right royally, and won't be back into government for at least five, but more likely, ten years. Not healthy, not healthy at all.

Yes, having an incompetent opposition party is very unhealthy, unfortunately Labour appear to be reluctant to change course from continuity Corbynism.

Anyway, just read this article which has relevance to this thread.

Taught to be stupid

Enough! Enough! For months, the so-called liberal elite has been writing articles, having radio and TV discussions, giving sermons (literally) and making speeches in which it has struggled to understand those strange creatures: ordinary people. The elite is bemused by what drives these people to...

beta.spectator.co.uk

 

[Sasaferrato]

how do you know what's in each subject? english literature's inherently political, as anyone who has read 'oliver twist', for example, can tell you. history's the subject most obviously driven by government policies. but what people are (and what people aren't) taught at school is largely determined by a political body - namely the government of the day. the teacher in a school rarely has the latitude to interject their own views being as they've got to spend so much time delivering what's in the nc

Agreed, of course English literature has bias. It is the job of the student to interpret the message.

I take your point about the NC it is woeful. Far too restrictive, no room for exploration of matters arising. There was much more latitude back in the day, and we still passed our exams.

 

[chilango]

Of course it can, provided the educator has no agenda to drive forward.

The majority of subjects have no natural political input anyway, so if there is any it is contrived.

Both of the statements are false.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Both of the statements are false.

You mean to say 'In my opinion...'. because that is what it is, your opinion, which has exactly the same validity as mine.

Physics
Chemistry
Biology
Mathematics

Explain how political bias could accidentally 'stray' into these subjects?

 

[Serge Forward]

The Spectator again. Utter cunt.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

.


Yes, having an incompetent opposition party is very unhealthy, unfortunately Labour appear to be reluctant to change course from continuity Corbynism.

Anyway, just read this article which has relevance to this thread.

Taught to be stupid

Enough! Enough! For months, the so-called liberal elite has been writing articles, having radio and TV discussions, giving sermons (literally) and making speeches in which it has struggled to understand those strange creatures: ordinary people. The elite is bemused by what drives these people to...

beta.spectator.co.uk

I think yourself and Sasaferrato could do with reading what I posted yesterday on this thread.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry, but you are falling into the trap of considering your opinion to be fact. A common left wing delusion.

no, i am not considering my opinion to be fact. it is a matter of public record that the conservative party imposed a national curriculum, detailing what pupils would be taught, in 1988. it is a matter of public record that the conservative party imposed the infamous clause 28. insisting that something is so - without the benefit of anything to actually support your assertion, as you and the unfortunate marty1 have done, that's considering your opinion to be fact. a common rw delusion.

 

[steeplejack]

I work at an educational institution.

Two things here:

1. There are as many political views here as there are in any other walk of life. No voters in 14 referendum, Im sure a few leave voters in ‘16. There are of course left-liberals too but very few out and out Marxists /Anarchists. Even the couple that might be sympathetic to far left causes are of the theoretical / lifestylist variety.

2. Being “far left” in higher ed is not as hegemonic as it once was. The student cohort is also markedly more right wing IMO. These are kids born at the turn of the century for whom soviet socialism and anarchist Barcelona are fairy stories with precisely zero relevance to their current lived experience. They may pay lip service to radical causes but in truth won’t do very much that will divert their difficult deflection shot at a vanishing middle class lifestyle.

The students seem more right wing / individualist than a decade ago, not because they choose that but because of how they have been socialised and their massively diminished future expectations on graduating, and how hard some of them have to work just to stay here at all.

Much political activity is spent on hashtag identity politics and consumerist environmentalism.

TPUK as such is a bunch of bullshit. They’re the equivalent of a GP diagnosing cancer from a patient presenting with eczema, and prescribing a twin track treatment of menthol cigarettes and more parsely. Bash the lefties shite spouted by Koch-funded arsenuggets in tight cardigans.

There’s so much going so badly wrong at present and folk actually are wasting time taking this pish seriously. Gies peace.

 

[chilango]

All educators have political (and other) biases, we are trained to recognize them and understand the impact that this has on teaching and learning and research etc.

 

[Sasaferrato]

no, i am not considering my opinion to be fact. it is a matter of public record that the conservative party imposed a national curriculum, detailing what pupils would be taught, in 1988. it is a matter of public record that the conservative party imposed the infamous clause 28. insisting that something is so - without the benefit of anything to actually support your assertion, as you and the unfortunate marty1 have done, that's considering your opinion to be fact. a common rw delusion.

Clause 28 was ridiculous, and has been repealed, as you should know.

Show me where I said that education was left biased.

 

[Pickman's model]

Clause 28 was ridiculous, and has been repealed, as you should know.

Show me where I said that education was left biased.

why should i? you've said (your 91) "Yes, education should not be guided by the political view of the educator"

but presumably it's fine iyo when it's the political view of the ruling party.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I work at an educational institution.

Two things here:

1. There are as many political views here as there are in any other walk of life. No voters in 14 referendum, Im sure a few leave voters in ‘16. There are of course left-liberals too but very few out and out Marxists /Anarchists. Even the couple that might be sympathetic to far left causes are of the theoretical / lifestylist variety.

2. Being “far left” in higher ed is not as hegemonic as it once was. The student cohort is also markedly more right wing IMO. These are kids born at the turn of the century for whom soviet socialism and anarchist Barcelona are fairy stories with precisely zero relevance to their current lived experience. They may pay lip service to radical causes but in truth won’t do very much that will divert their difficult deflection shot at a vanishing middle class lifestyle.

The students seem more right wing / individualist than a decade ago, not because they choose that but because of how they have been socialised and their massively diminished future expectations on graduating, and how hard some of them have to work just to stay here at all.

Much political activity is spent on hashtag identity politics and consumerist environmentalism.

TPUK as such is a bunch of bullshit. They’re the equivalent of a GP diagnosing cancer from a patient presenting with eczema, and prescribing a twin track treatment of menthol cigarettes and more parsely. Bash the lefties shite spouted by Koch-funded arsenuggets in tight cardigans.

There’s so much going so badly wrong at present and folk actually are wasting time taking this pish seriously. Gies peace.

Good post.

 

[Pickman's model]

so the british regimes which presided over the irish famine of the 1840s and the bengal famine of 1943/44, where would you put them? according to this link, cannibalism was likely practiced in ireland then.

Sasaferrato

you seem to have missed the question here

 

[Sasaferrato]

why should i? you've said (your 91) "Yes, education should not be guided by the political view of the educator"

but presumably it's fine iyo when it's the political view of the ruling party.

NO! Absolutely not. By neutral, I mean neutral, not right, not left, neutral.

 

[chilango]

You mean to say 'In my opinion...'. because that is what it is, your opinion, which has exactly the same validity as mine.

Physics
Chemistry
Biology
Mathematics

Explain how political bias could accidentally 'stray' into these subjects?

Whilst our opinions have equal validity in terms of their right to be expressed I would, with all due respect, suggest that my knowledge and experience of the education system, and the philosophical aspects of education probably carries more weight than yours. It's my area of professional and academic expertise. Doesn't mean I can't be wrong, but does mean it's a substantially informed opinion.

 

[Pickman's model]

NO! Absolutely not. By neutral, I mean neutral, not right, not left, neutral.

how would you neutrally teach about the third reich? would you proceed by saying 'the third reich did some awful things but let's not proceed without trying to understand their point of view'?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Sasaferrato

you seem to have missed the question here

Not subjects with which I'm familiar, I didn't do history after 'O' level.

Only an utter idiot would claim the Britain has spread sweetness and light over the world, because it hasn't.

 

[Marty1]

how would you neutrally teach about the third reich? would you proceed by saying 'the third reich did some awful things but let's not proceed without trying to understand their point of view'?

Wow.

 

[chilango]

You mean to say 'In my opinion...'. because that is what it is, your opinion, which has exactly the same validity as mine.

Physics
Chemistry
Biology
Mathematics

Explain how political bias could accidentally 'stray' into these subjects?

Physics - creationism and the conflict between religion and science.
Chemistry - fuck knows,.big pharma? Certainly at research level.
Biology - climate change, GMOs, etc
Maths - there was a row in the States recently about the maths curriculum being racist. I didn't read up on it, so couldn't tell you more than politicizes disputes do exist.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Whilst our opinions have equal validity in terms of their right to be expressed I would, with all due respect, suggest that my knowledge and experience of the education system, and the philosophical aspects of education probably carries more weight than yours. It's my area of professional and academic expertise. Doesn't mean I can't be wrong, but does mean it's a substantially informed opinion.

I am not questioning your expertise, nor am I accusing the educational establishment of anything. All I am doing is expressing my view that education should be as politically neutral as possible. That isn't hard to understand surely?

 

[chilango]

I am not questioning your expertise, nor am I accusing the educational establishment of anything. All I am doing is expressing my view that education should be as politically neutral as possible. That isn't hard to understand surely?

Oh I understand your point.

I'm questioning whether it's

a)possible
B)desirable