Transphobes gunning hard for 'paedophilia' angle all of a sudden

[Epona]

Not victim blaming, hate it and hate those that do. So, wouldn't dare try that tactic for specific reasons which am not going to go into details about.

Am only going to say that things happened here, in the past, courtesy of one or two posters that scarred and made think twice about revealing personal info.

That was my experience. Those people are no longer here for the most part. Do what you have to do and don't let the grief merchants get to you.

Won't stand for any shit, so yes, obviously there was no need for any personal attacks. You are not alone.

Real apologies, looks like I misunderstood what you meant - was actually a bit confused cos you've always been shit hot on trans stuff and didn't understand what was going on there.
Sorry that I misunderstood you.
I get the don't give too much info cos people might use it against you thing

Sorry that happened to you and thanks for explaining more fully what you meant (I was having an autism communication comprehension thing I think).
And yeah definitely worth considering not being too open on message boards - but also it's like almost all my IRL friends are people I know from Urban, I mean even my spouse and we've been together for nearly 20 years, we met here, so you know? This is my place, not theirs (by theirs I mean the transphobes and bigots).

Also due to massive stress about this thread might have overreacted to your post and for that I apologise.

Much love and sorry for the misunderstanding. Thank you for taking the time to clarify what you meant.

 

[krtek a houby]

Real apologies, looks like I misunderstood what you meant - was actually a bit confused cos you've always been shit hot on trans stuff and didn't understand what was going on there.
Sorry that I misunderstood you.
I get the don't give too much info cos people might use it against you thing

Sorry that happened to you and thanks for explaining more fully what you meant (I was having an autism communication comprehension thing I think).
And yeah definitely worth considering not being too open on message boards - but also it's like almost all my IRL friends are people I know from Urban, I mean even my spouse and we've been together for nearly 20 years, we met here, so you know? This is my place, not theirs (by theirs I mean the transphobes and bigots).

Also due to massive stress about this thread might have overreacted to your post and for that I apologise.

Much love and sorry for the misunderstanding. Thank you for taking the time to clarify what you meant.

It's all good. Please don't worry and you have support, empathy and respect.

 

[Epona]

It's all good. Please don't worry and you have support, empathy and respect.

Thank you - and also for recognising that I am on a bit of a hair trigger about this stuff - due to the current climate.
I appreciate you being so understanding.

 

[krtek a houby]

Thank you - and also for recognising that I am on a bit of a hair trigger about this stuff - due to the current climate.
I appreciate you being so understanding.

The climate is heating up for all of us in the LGBT world, and some days it's so intense that have to take shelter. That's why we should ensure that urban is free from bigotry. At the very least, folks who are struggling with the concepts of trans/binary/etc should ask.

Struggling myself on occasion!

 

[Epona]

The climate is heating up for all of us in the LGBT world, and some days it's so intense that have to take shelter. That's why we should ensure that urban is free from bigotry. At the very least, folks who are struggling with the concepts of trans/binary/etc should ask.

Struggling myself on occasion!

It's an attack on us all, even if not everyone recognises it as such right now.
Thin end of the wedge type stuff.

 

[DaphneM]

I reread it and you are possibly correct, but Epona does tend to do a lot of knee jerk reactions.

Possibly???? can you read english?

 

[SpookyFrank]

But is there anything else similar in the whole world where even partaking in a conversation (apart from to say yay go you heart emoji or whatever) is perceived as an act of dehumanisation. i cant think of a single thing.

I'd say there are conversations to be had about how we include everyone and how we protect human dignity, which is always a lot more complex than just saying that we're going to do it.

A conversation I'm not interested in having is the one about whether trans people actually are who they say they are, or whether they have a right to exist on their own terms. There are people who won't accept even that, or who consider trans existence to be an act of violence against them personally. Those people can't be reasoned with. For me it's less a matter of excluding them from civilised society and more one of recognising that they've already excluded themselves by refusing to tolerate ordinary people trying to go about their lives in peace.

That's just my take, not an attempt to guess at or mansplain what Clair De Lune was getting at.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I reread it and you are possibly correct, but Epona does tend to do a lot of knee jerk reactions.

Apology level: Boris Johnson

 

[Pickman's model]

I reread it and you are possibly correct, but Epona does tend to do a lot of knee jerk reactions.

You're just coming across as a jerk. You do this a lot.

 

[Cid]

I'd say there are conversations to be had about how we include everyone and how we protect human dignity, which is always a lot more complex than just saying that we're going to do it.

A conversation I'm not interested in having is the one about whether trans people actually are who they say they are, or whether they have a right to exist on their own terms. There are people who won't accept even that, or who consider trans existence to be an act of violence against them personally. Those people can't be reasoned with. For me it's less a matter of excluding them from civilised society and more one of recognising that they've already excluded themselves by refusing to tolerate ordinary people trying to go about their lives in peace.

That's just my take, not an attempt to guess at or mansplain what Clair De Lune was getting at.

I was watching contrapoints' latest yesterday, which is largely on the merits, or arguable lack thereof, of engaging with people in a deradicalising sense. I haven't finished it and was a bit pissed when I started, so not really going to try and summarise it properly. But framed through the lens of her being invited onto a discussion with JK Rowling and Megan Phelps-Roper (the woman who left Westboro baptist church), and how that played out as more creating a narrative of Rowling as being subject to a witch hunt (explicitly, it being the title of P-R's podcast). Anita Bryant is used to show that gay rights weren't won through 'reasonable debate' etc, but rather through a genuinely combative approach and effectively use of cancel culture. Obviously a lot of Natalie's earlier work was more toward deradicalisation, and I don't think she's totally dismissing it, just pointing out that its utility can be limited, and it can create problems of its own (e.g she mentions black members of her community being... uncomfortable... with a bunch of half-reformed racists showing up on the left).



(also wtf? at last night, and solidarity to Epona )

 

[Knotted]

I was watching contrapoints' latest yesterday, which is largely on the merits, or arguable lack thereof, of engaging with people in a deradicalising sense. I haven't finished it and was a bit pissed when I started, so not really going to try and summarise it properly. But framed through the lens of her being invited onto a discussion with JK Rowling and Megan Phelps-Roper (the woman who left Westboro baptist church), and how that played out as more creating a narrative of Rowling as being subject to a witch hunt (explicitly, it being the title of P-R's podcast). Anita Bryant is used to show that gay rights weren't won through 'reasonable debate' etc, but rather through a genuinely combative approach and effectively use of cancel culture. Obviously a lot of Natalie's earlier work was more toward deradicalisation, and I don't think she's totally dismissing it, just pointing out that its utility can be limited, and it can create problems of its own (e.g she mentions black members of her community being... uncomfortable... with a bunch of half-reformed racists showing up on the left).



(also wtf? at last night, and solidarity to Epona )

There's a clip of Posie Parker either in that video or somewhere else I've chanced on where she's on about transgenderism being a paraphilia and paraphilias correlate hint hint which I think is her take on the trans-paedo supposed link. It's anti-LGBT rhetoric as whole not just transphobic not that that would be OK but these types claim that there is something specific about trans people that's debatable, but that was just a century's old bad/dubious science take. PP is a bit of an outlier tbf, but the people caught up in this anti-trans movement really don't seem to care, it really just doesn't do them any harm whereas there seems to be endless vilification of trans people on tweeting something salty on twitter and that stuff is taken to characterise those who talk about trans rights. That contrapoints video is a good if long piece of perspective on the aggression of political activism.

Another (science) youtuber I follow (Sabine Hossenfelder) has just made a awful video about "rapid onset gender dysphoria" both sidesing the issue - "there's a lack of good evidence either way" dodging the onus of the thesis to provide evidence for itself. My excuse for her is that she's talking outside her speciality and that straying into politically sensitive territory she's under pressure to please everyone. It's not a good excuse but it does show how the legitimising of the conversation around this shifts a particular Overton window cf what Clair De Lune was saying up thread. It's not an intellectual exercise it's people's lives at stake. Sensible-centrist-grown-ups-in-the-room start taking a middle road against "extremists on both sides" unaware that their position has been crafted by the culture war itself.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Another (science) youtuber I follow (Sabine Hossenfelder) has just made a awful video about "rapid onset gender dysphoria" both sidesing the issue - "there's a lack of good evidence either way" dodging the onus of the thesis to provide evidence for itself. My excuse for her is that she's talking outside her speciality and that straying into politically sensitive territory she's under pressure to please everyone. It's not a good excuse but it does show how the legitimising of the conversation around this shifts a particular Overton window cf what Clair De Lune was saying up thread. It's not an intellectual exercise it's people's lives at stake. Sensible-centrist-grown-ups-in-the-room start taking a middle road against "extremists on both sides" unaware that their position has been crafted by the culture war itself.

I've seen her make a tit of herself before, so I stopped watching her videos long before she proved herself to be a anti trans stooge.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I was watching contrapoints' latest yesterday, which is largely on the merits, or arguable lack thereof, of engaging with people in a deradicalising sense. I haven't finished it and was a bit pissed when I started, so not really going to try and summarise it properly. But framed through the lens of her being invited onto a discussion with JK Rowling and Megan Phelps-Roper (the woman who left Westboro baptist church), and how that played out as more creating a narrative of Rowling as being subject to a witch hunt (explicitly, it being the title of P-R's podcast). Anita Bryant is used to show that gay rights weren't won through 'reasonable debate' etc, but rather through a genuinely combative approach and effectively use of cancel culture. Obviously a lot of Natalie's earlier work was more toward deradicalisation, and I don't think she's totally dismissing it, just pointing out that its utility can be limited, and it can create problems of its own (e.g she mentions black members of her community being... uncomfortable... with a bunch of half-reformed racists showing up on the left).

I don't think you can tackle this kind of thing with education tbh. Because the lies you might want to challenge are incidental to the whole thing. They're a pretext for people to rationalise a pre-existing hatred, or at best inherent suspicion and distrust. Most people don't want to be bigots, but they also don't want to have to think too carefully about how they feel about certain people or why. The anti-trans cult leaders, just like all the other fascist demagogues before them, know this all too well. It's all calculated, there's no way they're simply acting in good faith with bad information. You can't deradicalise that. You can't find common ground with people who don't share the concept of universal human dignity, which most of us start with as a first principle and build the rest of our beliefs and understandings up from.

Maybe you can get through to some of the people on the fringes, the people who will lazily repeat the tropes without really thinking about them, but it's not something I can be bothered with. I believe everyone has a responsibility to think critically about their behaviour and their ideas and if these people shared that belief, they wouldn't have been suckered in by this shit in the first place. The basic process is the same, wanting some rational basis for an irrational dislike, so the core of it is emotional not rational. You have to move the emotional levers, by introducing consequences for those who spout shit without thinking. Because there are already consequences, just not for the people doing the spouting.

 

[vanya]

For over 40 years Terfs and the right have been accusing trans women of being potential rapists who are a threat to women. Around 2017 Stonewall started pushing the idea of self id for gender recognition certificate. This meant that Roy the rapist could just ruck up and get a gender recognition certificate without a diagnosis of gender dsyphoria to prove that they were trans and without the two year real life rest to show that they were serious about it. If they were caught they would be able to go to a women’s prison. This has really happened. Look at the case of Karen White (Guardian 11/10/2018) who was admitted to a woman’s prison when the prison service introduced a policy of self ID.

I cannot think of a better way of inciting hatred against trans women then allowing rapists to exploit the system to get a gender recognition certificates. This frightens the hell out of me. I have never known so much hatred towards trans people on social or main stream media since the idea of self ID came in. 10 years ago this hardly happened as the majority of people had no interest in trans issues.

There are also people who are confused or have mental health problems who mistakenly think that they have gender dsyphoria, and could be making the biggest mistake of their lives if they go on to have hormones and the op. The last thing they need is for the law to confirm them in their delusion by giving them a gender recognition certificate.. This is why they need to see a doctor to get a medical diagnosis to that they can be directed towards the therapy or treatment they need.

The risk of this happening with children is much greater as they are still developing and do not understand themselves. Many children go through a phase of identifying with the opposite gender and then grow out of it. And yet woke ideology wants children to be able to get the op. This is likely to get a lot of them to regretting what they have done. If children end up mutilating themselves then a lot of people will get very angry about this. Again I can’t think of a better way of inciting hatred against trans people. It will also lead to a backlash against the whole idea of gender reassignment operations. I want these operations be available to people who need them. But in order for this to happen we need to have reasonable safeguards in place to try to stop people who mistakenly think they are trans from having the operation. This is even more important with children. No one under 18 should be having this op.

 

[SpookyFrank]

And yet woke ideology wants children to be able to get the op.

Nobody, woke or otherwise, wants children to have access to gender reassignment surgery. This is nowhere on anyone's agenda and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Argh fuck and right after I said, 'there's no point in engaging with these people if they're knowingly spreading falsehoods' I immediately forget my own advice and start trying to engage with yet another fucking crank

 

[Dystopiary]

For over 40 years Terfs and the right have been accusing trans women of being potential rapists who are a threat to women. Around 2017 Stonewall started pushing the idea of self id for gender recognition certificate. This meant that Roy the rapist could just ruck up and get a gender recognition certificate without a diagnosis of gender dsyphoria to prove that they were trans and without the two year real life rest to show that they were serious about it. If they were caught they would be able to go to a women’s prison. This has really happened. Look at the case of Karen White (Guardian 11/10/2018) who was admitted to a woman’s prison when the prison service introduced a policy of self ID.

I cannot think of a better way of inciting hatred against trans women then allowing rapists to exploit the system to get a gender recognition certificates. This frightens the hell out of me. I have never known so much hatred towards trans people on social or main stream media since the idea of self ID came in. 10 years ago this hardly happened as the majority of people had no interest in trans issues.

There are also people who are confused or have mental health problems who mistakenly think that they have gender dsyphoria, and could be making the biggest mistake of their lives if they go on to have hormones and the op. The last thing they need is for the law to confirm them in their delusion by giving them a gender recognition certificate.. This is why they need to see a doctor to get a medical diagnosis to that they can be directed towards the therapy or treatment they need.

The risk of this happening with children is much greater as they are still developing and do not understand themselves. Many children go through a phase of identifying with the opposite gender and then grow out of it. And yet woke ideology wants children to be able to get the op. This is likely to get a lot of them to regretting what they have done. If children end up mutilating themselves then a lot of people will get very angry about this. Again I can’t think of a better way of inciting hatred against trans people. It will also lead to a backlash against the whole idea of gender reassignment operations. I want these operations be available to people who need them. But in order for this to happen we need to have reasonable safeguards in place to try to stop people who mistakenly think they are trans from having the operation. This is even more important with children. No one under 18 should be having this op.

I'm pretty sure children aren't having "the op" as you call it. This stuff and your use of the right-wing term "woke ideology" suggests you've been getting your "facts" from some dubious sources.
And re women's prisons, there are hefty safeguards in place. I don't see this concern when it comes to women prisoners' rights on any other topic, including sexual assaults from fellow prisoners and prison (including cis male) staff. Many people only raise concerns about women in prison when they hear "OMG trans" stories, ignoring the aforementioned safeguards and actual assaults happening against those women.

 

[iona]

No one is handing out hormones and surgery with GRCs ffs and it was never suggested that that would change with self ID.

As for kids having "the op" (which one?), waiting times are usually so long that you could refer a child who was still in primary school (not that this is happening just be clear) and they still wouldn't actually get to have surgery until they were an adult. Things look to be improving recently but an FOI request last year estimated about an 8 YEAR wait for phalloplasty and metoidioplasty - that's the wait after getting seen at a GIC and being given a surgery referral, which itself takes years. At one point because of a commissioning fuckup there was literally no one performing those surgeries on the NHS and even people who were between stages and needed surgical repairs or revisions were just left stranded.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

No one under 18 is allowed the op anyway, at least not on the NHS.

 

[hitmouse]

I was watching contrapoints' latest yesterday, which is largely on the merits, or arguable lack thereof, of engaging with people in a deradicalising sense. I haven't finished it and was a bit pissed when I started, so not really going to try and summarise it properly. But framed through the lens of her being invited onto a discussion with JK Rowling and Megan Phelps-Roper (the woman who left Westboro baptist church), and how that played out as more creating a narrative of Rowling as being subject to a witch hunt (explicitly, it being the title of P-R's podcast). Anita Bryant is used to show that gay rights weren't won through 'reasonable debate' etc, but rather through a genuinely combative approach and effectively use of cancel culture. Obviously a lot of Natalie's earlier work was more toward deradicalisation, and I don't think she's totally dismissing it, just pointing out that its utility can be limited, and it can create problems of its own (e.g she mentions black members of her community being... uncomfortable... with a bunch of half-reformed racists showing up on the left).



(also wtf? at last night, and solidarity to Epona )

Oh, I've also been slowly watching my way through that one, and am very interested in the arguments she makes, especially given some of her own prior work. It is fucking long though!

For over 40 years Terfs and the right have been accusing trans women of being potential rapists who are a threat to women. Around 2017 Stonewall started pushing the idea of self id for gender recognition certificate. This meant that Roy the rapist could just ruck up and get a gender recognition certificate without a diagnosis of gender dsyphoria to prove that they were trans and without the two year real life rest to show that they were serious about it. If they were caught they would be able to go to a women’s prison. This has really happened. Look at the case of Karen White (Guardian 11/10/2018) who was admitted to a woman’s prison when the prison service introduced a policy of self ID.

I cannot think of a better way of inciting hatred against trans women then allowing rapists to exploit the system to get a gender recognition certificates. This frightens the hell out of me. I have never known so much hatred towards trans people on social or main stream media since the idea of self ID came in. 10 years ago this hardly happened as the majority of people had no interest in trans issues.

What do you think about male guards working in women's prisons?

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

For over 40 years Terfs and the right have been accusing trans women of being potential rapists who are a threat to women. Around 2017 Stonewall started pushing the idea of self id for gender recognition certificate. This meant that Roy the rapist could just ruck up and get a gender recognition certificate without a diagnosis of gender dsyphoria to prove that they were trans and without the two year real life rest to show that they were serious about it. If they were caught they would be able to go to a women’s prison. This has really happened. Look at the case of Karen White (Guardian 11/10/2018) who was admitted to a woman’s prison when the prison service introduced a policy of self ID.

I cannot think of a better way of inciting hatred against trans women then allowing rapists to exploit the system to get a gender recognition certificates. This frightens the hell out of me. I have never known so much hatred towards trans people on social or main stream media since the idea of self ID came in. 10 years ago this hardly happened as the majority of people had no interest in trans issues.

There are also people who are confused or have mental health problems who mistakenly think that they have gender dsyphoria, and could be making the biggest mistake of their lives if they go on to have hormones and the op. The last thing they need is for the law to confirm them in their delusion by giving them a gender recognition certificate.. This is why they need to see a doctor to get a medical diagnosis to that they can be directed towards the therapy or treatment they need.

The risk of this happening with children is much greater as they are still developing and do not understand themselves. Many children go through a phase of identifying with the opposite gender and then grow out of it. And yet woke ideology wants children to be able to get the op. This is likely to get a lot of them to regretting what they have done. If children end up mutilating themselves then a lot of people will get very angry about this. Again I can’t think of a better way of inciting hatred against trans people. It will also lead to a backlash against the whole idea of gender reassignment operations. I want these operations be available to people who need them. But in order for this to happen we need to have reasonable safeguards in place to try to stop people who mistakenly think they are trans from having the operation. This is even more important with children. No one under 18 should be having this op.

Unadulterated pure cow shit.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Around 2017 Stonewall started pushing the idea of self id for gender recognition certificate.

Around 2017 Stonewall apologised for being transphobic in the past and invited trans people in to the organisation to set the future policies for Stonewall. I know this because some people I knew then wrote those policies. Essentially, trans people were speaking for ourselves when those policies were put in place.

This meant that Roy the rapist could just ruck up and get a gender recognition certificate without a diagnosis of gender dsyphoria to prove that they were trans and without the two year real life rest to show that they were serious about it.

No it doesn't. Its a legal document and if you are found to have lied you go to prison. It means identifying as a woman full time, including changing all your documentation. Its a serious legal commitment and in all the countries that already have it this has never happened. Why would a rapist want to live as a woman when there's clearly no need to. Roy the rapist is doing very well thankyou under existing conditions. And then you provide an example that occurred under the old system and which occurred because the rules were not followed. It wasn't because "they introduced self id". that is a complete fabrication on your part.

I cannot think of a better way of inciting hatred against trans women then allowing rapists to exploit the system to get a gender recognition certificates.

Certainly, claiming such a thing - falsely - has whipped up a lot of hatred. So why are you doing it?

This frightens the hell out of me. I have never known so much hatred towards trans people on social or main stream media since the idea of self ID came in.

And yet people by and large remain supportive of self id - when there was a huge national consultation on this subject it turns out that it was not as unpopular or as controversial as TERFs claimed. So I wonder where the hatred is being whipped up from really?

There are also people who are confused or have mental health problems who mistakenly think that they have gender dsyphoria, and could be making the biggest mistake of their lives if they go on to have hormones and the op. The last thing they need is for the law to confirm them in their delusion by giving them a gender recognition certificate.. This is why they need to see a doctor to get a medical diagnosis to that they can be directed towards the therapy or treatment they need.

Well you're conflating what is a purely legal document with medical changes - and i think you know exactly what you're doing. Obtaining a gender recognition certificate will not automatically give someone the right to walk in and obtain hormones and secure operations. The two things are entirely separate. Right now anyone can change their name to a female name, update IDs, change how they dress and say they're a woman. How does a GRC make any difference to that? Its just scare mongering.

And finally none of this applies to children and you know it. Stop scare mongering in order to whip up hatred.

 

[Sweet FA]

Unadulterated pure cow shit.

...that has already been done to death on the TERF bigots thread.

vanya, we've dealt with your concerns before.



Love and strength to you Jenna xx

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Also, in the case of Karen White, where the prison authorities fucked up was allowing her as a sex offender in with Gen Pop. That shouldn't happen whether the offender is trans or not.

 

[NoXion]

"Woke ideology", for fuck's sake. That's fash shit innit? Disturbing how normalised such rhetoric has become.

 

[iona]

Just realised that I forgot most of what I was going to say and just went off on a rant about waiting times instead but Jennaonthebeach has covered it already now, probably better than I would've.

 

[smokedout]

There's a clip of Posie Parker either in that video or somewhere else I've chanced on where she's on about transgenderism being a paraphilia and paraphilias correlate hint hint which I think is her take on the trans-paedo supposed link. It's anti-LGBT rhetoric as whole not just transphobic not that that would be OK but these types claim that there is something specific about trans people that's debatable, but that was just a century's old bad/dubious science take. PP is a bit of an outlier tbf, but the people caught up in this anti-trans movement really don't seem to care, it really just doesn't do them any harm whereas there seems to be endless vilification of trans people on tweeting something salty on twitter and that stuff is taken to characterise those who talk about trans rights.

They found some decades old paper which said if someone has a paraphilia then they are more likely than normal to have another one. That's where the trans people are paedophiles claim comes from and has also been extended to drag queens, furries and anyone else they think is motivated by a fetish. It's worth noting here that when sexologists talk about paraphilias they mean a mental health condition involving obsessive sexual interest which causes either significant difficulties for the individual concerned or makes them a risk to others. When terfs talk about paraphilias they just mean someone who's a bit kinky. I read a thread on mumsnet that pretty much concluded that anyone who was found to be involved in BDSM or any other 'kink' should be prevented from working with children for life.

Not sure PP is an outlier anymore really. It's those who raised concerns about her that seem to have been the ones who have been sidelined. JKR seems to be a big fan and recently retweeted a piece by Helen Joyce eulogising her. Her rhetoric is pretty mainstream gender critical thought now.

 

[smokedout]

dp

 

[SpookyFrank]

"Woke ideology", for fuck's sake. That's fash shit innit? Disturbing how normalised such rhetoric has become.

And how comfortable people are ascribing completely made up stuff to this nebulous boogeyman.

Wonder if vanya will be back to explain why they chose to post such clear and obvious falsehoods.

 

[newme]

I am yet to understand why treating people as people is supposed to be bad, no hate like christian love as they seem to say a lot over in the states.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Wonder if vanya will be back to explain why they chose to post such clear and obvious falsehoods.

No chance.