Transphobes gunning hard for 'paedophilia' angle all of a sudden

[Epona]

Thanks. It just might happen. I'm down in Dover but a trip to London is not beyond the realms of possibilities.

Dover is not so far away, it's a bit of trek but I'll tag you in future when we are doing London events - you would be most welcome

 

[NoXion]

The toilet in my home is not gendered!

Edit: anyway I feel I may have been party to dragging this a bit off topic, apologies

I don't think you need to apologise. The bullshit with toilets is a particular facet of the the current culture war being perpetrated by nationalist conservatives against people who are trans, non-binary, or otherwise different from the stereotype they demand that women and men be. It's relevant IMO.

 

[Cerv]

Replace the number of urinals with same of cubicles at least.

for the Tardis bogs sure

each cubicle occupies more space than each urinal.
(for this maths I'm counting a trough that serves X users as X urinals not 1 huge urinal)

 

[editor]

Transphobia hurts cis women.

That's made me so fucking angry.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Dover is not so far away, it's a bit of trek but I'll tag you in future when we are doing London events - you would be most welcome

Yeah, its logistics and cost that are the main barriers. But when I can afford it I'll be getting myself a little car I reckon which would solve the logistics issue. And after I start my new job the cost problem should be solved too.

 

[Epona]

That's made me so fucking angry.

It's fucking horrific, and it's where allowing any transphobia to stand unchallenged leads us.

First they came for...

 

[Cloo]

It just makes no sense for me as a meaningful measure for 'women's safety' to try to keep trans people out of the right facilities for them:

• It being illegal to assault women in the first place has failed to stop men assaulting women - making it harder for them to dress as women/'pose as a woman' to do so won't necessarily even stop them doing that, and if it does stop them posing as women, I hardly think such people are going to just give up on abusing women and it's not like toilets and changing rooms are the only place they can find them. It won't reduce sexual assault at all.
• It puts every single trans person is put at risk every single time they go out in public as we know assault and harrassment against them is extremely high and would be even higher if this was forced; it will create far more incidence of crimes against trans people than trans access creates against women
• It will create harrassment and assault (as we've seen) of gender non-conforming people - this is, of course, a feature and not a bug of the idealogy behind this
• If people who are 'so scared' to go into facilities because there 'might be a trans woman in there', why aren't they scared to go in them 'because there might be a man hiding in a cubicle' or because 'a man might follow me in there'? The latter two are more likely than encoutering a trans woman who is a sex offender.

I mean, I hate the arguments one gets into online because the GCs get all 'So how many assualts against women are acceptable then, huh, huh?' Of course none are, but that's not the fault of trans people or trans rights. That's the fault of abusive men and systems that enable them. Maybe let's sort that bit out.

 

[smokedout]

Went and saw Caberet (thoroughly recommend). They have gender nuetralled the toilets. THAT is is proper bonkers...Old existing building so all doing is reducing amount of toilets. Entire life been aware women end up queuing longer for public loos due to it being cubicals. Getting rid of urinals and making everyone queue for cubicals is nuts. (Different but related toilets issue)

Are you sure there weren't urinals somewhere? The most optimal use of space in terms of getting people in and out quickly is seperate urinals and cubicles anyone can use. That should, in theory, reduce queuing time for women because you no longer have cubicals sitting empty in the men's whildst there are queues for the women's. Obviously a lot of people don't like that but that's why a lot of theatres which have limited space have switched over to gender neutral. It's nothing to do with trans people or being woke even if they do add a bit of inclusivity spin to it for PR purposes.

 

[krtek a houby]

I was thinking also about Posie Parker literally asking men to take guns into women's toilets.

I won't post the clip but it's out there. I'll post what she said with spoilers.

Spoiler: transcript

“I’m talking about you dads, who maybe carry – I think that’s what you say, I’m so down with the American lingo.

Maybe you carry, maybe you don’t. Maybe you consider yourself a protector of women, maybe you’re that sort of man.

Maybe you have a daughter or a mother, or a wife, maybe you have a sister. Maybe you have friends, maybe you just think women are human and you don’t need any absolute connection with them to feel compelled to protect us.

I think you should start using women’s toilets, men.”

She happily associates with the far right.

She's said that restriction to abortion is a price worth paying in the fight against trans people.

She's dangerous, but not one prominent gender-critical person has denounced her or any of the shit things she's said or done afaict.

This is why am (half seriously) in favour of LGBT people arming themselves.

Certainly if had the misfortune to live in the US or any of the areas that are whipped up into a frenzy.

 

[smokedout]

I mean, I hate the arguments one gets into online because the GCs get all 'So how many assualts against women are acceptable then, huh, huh?' Of course none are, but that's not the fault of trans people or trans rights. That's the fault of abusive men and systems that enable them. Maybe let's sort that bit out.

I heard Kathleen Stock make this argument recently, that just one incident is enough to justify trans exclusion. It's an emotive argument that shut up the man who was interviewing her. But we don't organise any other aspect of society this way. If we did we would never let sex offenders out of prison. We wouldn't let men work in schools (or women for that matter). We wouldn't have cars or planes or play sports. It would justify what happened to the women in the video just posted. The elimination of risk to absolute zero is an impossible aim and attempts to try and do so can only ever be tyrannical.

It also completely negates the danger to trans people and the wider negative consequences for all gender nonconforming people. How many trans women forced into male spaces do we accept being assaulted to prevent that one incident? How many women harassed like the woman above? What impact would placing an implicit femininity test at the toilet door have on society - the religious right know the answer to that one btw.

There is only one recorded incident of a trans women sexually assaulting someone in a women's toilet in the world. The chances of it happening must be billions to one and it's hard to see how a bathroom bill would prevent it. But I think a lot of terfs know all this. It's not really about toilets and safety, it's about the elimination of social and legal recognition of trans people. The more honest of them like Sheila Jeffreys and Janice Raymond are at least open about it. But you can't say that in a column in the Sunday Times. Not yet anyway.

 

[smokedout]

She's said that restriction to abortion is a price worth paying in the fight against trans people.

She's dangerous, but not one prominent gender-critical person has denounced her or any of the shit things she's said or done afaict.

She's gone further than that. On her recent CPAC sponsored tour of Australia she announced she was also campaigning against Gillick competence - that is the right for minors to access reproductive healthcare without parental approval. This caused a small row in gender critical circles with those who opposed her predictably labelled groomers who want children to be able to easily access contraception. Mary Harrington, who is growing in influence in the gender critical movement, is also campaigning against contraception under the banner of reactionary feminism. She's joined by Louise Perry who claims men and women are fundamentally different and that women don't really enjoy casual sex and so should get married to 'tame' men, have children and avoid divorce. Nina Power is also arguing along these lines.

I think it's likely the gender critical movement will split along these lines in the next couple of years. I also think it's likely the reactionary voices will win out, bolstered as they are being by the conservative right. And sadly I think reproductive healthcare is likely to become a much bigger political issue in the UK over the next few years with some of those arguing against abortion doing so under a feminist banner. The ideological groundwork has already been lain. Biological essentialism is back in a big way, as is resistance to young people's bodily autonomy. Figures like Matt Walsh and Jordan Peterson are being lauded by people calling themselves feminists. Huge amounts of money are flowing into Europe from the evangelical movement. And anti-abortion protests are growing bigger and becoming more militant every day.

And for those who think this can't happen and the UK isn't like that, don't forget that ten years ago trans women were going round being women and using women's spaces and barely anybody cared. Once the right wing press get their teeth into something then change can happen very quickly - because the change only really needs to happen amongst the political and media elite and everyone else just gets dragged along.

 

[Cloo]

The Right spotted sadly that trans rights would be an easy fault line in the Left for them to exploit. It does make me spit blood that there are women who fall for this 'we care so much about women's safety' or 'we care about the real lesbians' line from people who want to put LGBTQ+ people back in the closet or prison, and gender roles back in the Biblical era, and then have the gall to call women like me 'handmaidens' for seeing through that and not supporting them.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

The Right spotted sadly that trans rights would be an easy fault line in the Left for them to exploit. It does make me spit blood that there are women who fall for this 'we care so much about women's safety' or 'we care about the real lesbians' line from people who want to put LGBTQ+ people back in the closet or prison, and gender roles back in the Biblical era, and then have the gall to call women like me 'handmaidens' for seeing through that and not supporting them.

Thank you, that irks me too. As if name-calling is going to get us onside anyway!

 

[Cloo]

Another thought that has occurred is that surely there are so few SAs carried out by trans women or men masquarading as women that it could not possibly have a statistically significant effect on crime against women?

Sure, maybe the number of such assaults would fall (albeit not to zero) but in the scheme of all SAs reported it could not possibly make any difference that you could claim was down to banning trans people from facilities. You might have discouraged a couple of blokes from trying it presenting as a woman, but they'll just do it some other way or if for some of them it really is some kind of paraphilia to assault women while dressed as one then no law is going to make them desist.

However, I think you'd see a pretty significant rise in hate crimes and assaults against trans people that would be attributable to it.

 

[quimcunx]

Went and saw Caberet (thoroughly recommend). They have gender nuetralled the toilets. THAT is is proper bonkers...Old existing building so all doing is reducing amount of toilets. Entire life been aware women end up queuing longer for public loos due to it being cubicals. Getting rid of urinals and making everyone queue for cubicals is nuts. (Different but related toilets issue)

Heaven forbid men should have to queue. If you increase the number of cubicles women have to queue for less time and men for more time. Why shouldn't the queuing burden be shared more equally between men and women instead of all being on the women?

Think of it this way. If you'd historically had 2 unisex toilets with 10 cubicles each and everyone was used to waiting for an average of 2 minutes then someone suggested changing them so 1 toilet was for men only and would have 10 urinals for speed and 2 cubicles, cutting average queuing time for men to 0 - 30 seconds and the other toilet be just for women whose queuing time would go up to 5 minutes do you not think the women would be justified in saying fuck off, that's bonkers? Why should we pay for men reducing their wait to 0 by increasing ours to 5 minutes?

 

[Tanya1982]

It's fucking horrific, and it's where allowing any transphobia to stand unchallenged leads us.

First they came for...

That was only ever a matter of time. I’m surprised it doesn’t happen more often in this climate. Before long, we’ll be back to lots of obviously gay people being socially rejected from toilets, arrested from them, abused in them, or battered for daring to go in. Everyone else will have to look super feminine to use the ‘powder room’ or be a ‘man’s man’ and stick to the urinals.

Of all the places I thought society might end up, caring so much about strangers having a piss wasn't there.

I am so sick of hearing about penises - who has one, who doesn’t, who can’t, who shouldn’t. It’s like the whole world now revolves around dicks.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

It's like the whole world now revolves around dicks.

Which is ironically what they claim to be fighting against!

 

[Tanya1982]

I was thinking also about Posie Parker literally asking men to take guns into women's toilets.

I won't post the clip but it's out there. I'll post what she said with spoilers.

Spoiler: transcript

“I’m talking about you dads, who maybe carry – I think that’s what you say, I’m so down with the American lingo.

Maybe you carry, maybe you don’t. Maybe you consider yourself a protector of women, maybe you’re that sort of man.

Maybe you have a daughter or a mother, or a wife, maybe you have a sister. Maybe you have friends, maybe you just think women are human and you don’t need any absolute connection with them to feel compelled to protect us.

I think you should start using women’s toilets, men.”

She happily associates with the far right.

She's said that restriction to abortion is a price worth paying in the fight against trans people.

She's dangerous, but not one prominent gender-critical person has denounced her or any of the shit things she's said or done afaict.

What is this insanity? Who wants men - or women - with guns in toilets? Or anywhere really.

I’m a feminine presenting straight cis woman, but I’m 5’10/11 (and 6’3/4 in my highest heels and therefore taller than all but the tallest men when wearing them), so I might stand out for extra questioning - am I soon going to have to let a ‘protective’ man with a gun look down my knickers in order to be allowed to go for a quick pee?

Just make it stop. Why can’t everyone basically mind their own business and let people get on with their lives.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

What is this insanity? Who wants men - or women - with guns in toilets? Or anywhere really.

I’m a feminine presenting straight cis woman, but I’m 5’10/11 (and 6’3/4 in my highest heels and therefore taller than all but the tallest men when wearing them), so I might stand out for extra questioning - am I soon going to have to let a ‘protective’ man with a gun look down my knickers in order to be allowed to go for a quick pee?

Just make it stop. Why can’t everyone basically mind their own business and let people get on with their lives.

Sexually assaulting toilet-goers to show that assaulting toilet-goers is wrong. I wonder if these people even listen to the asininity of what they're proposing.

 

[gosub]

Heaven forbid men should have to queue. If you increase the number of cubicles women have to queue for less time and men for more time. Why shouldn't the queuing burden be shared more equally between men and women instead of all being on the women?

Think of it this way. If you'd historically had 2 unisex toilets with 10 cubicles each and everyone was used to waiting for an average of 2 minutes then someone suggested changing them so 1 toilet was for men only and would have 10 urinals for speed and 2 cubicles, cutting average queuing time for men to 0 - 30 seconds and the other toilet be just for women whose queuing time would go up to 5 minutes do you not think the women would be justified in saying fuck off, that's bonkers? Why should we pay for men reducing their wait to 0 by increasing ours to 5 minutes?

What I actually did was go for a piss in Whitehall Park. Thus reducing the rather long queue by one.

I've been at events where women frustrated by length of queues ask and usually accepted use the cubicles in men's. That can't happen under this system.

Whatever point you think you are making, in practice system results in slower system for everybody which at a time critical event such as the theatre is daft. Particularly at a show where they literally start plying you with drink at the front door.

 

[gosub]

Tbh I am more amazed no one else here has been to see Caberet. Worth seeing.

 

[quimcunx]

What I actually did was go for a piss in Whitehall Park. Thus reducing the rather long queue by one.

I've been at events where women frustrated by length of queues ask and usually accepted use the cubicles in men's. That can't happen under this system.

Whatever point you think you are making, in practice system results in slower system for everybody which at a time critical event such as the theatre is daft. Particularly at a show where they literally start plying you with drink at the front door.

No, it makes a slower system for you. Lucky you being able to opt out and go to the park. Under the unisex system women have the chance to use 20 cubicles, instead of 10, or maybe another 2 if they want to ask the men if it's ok. Having women still queuing while the men's is empty is what's daft.

Anyway, sorry this is a pointless digression from the thread so I'll leave it there.

 

[gosub]

Tbh I am more amazed no one else here has been to see Caberet. Worth seeing.

Like I said its a really good show. Though all 3 women I went with commented on the toilet arrangements.

 

[Cloo]

Tbh I am more amazed no one else here has been to see Caberet. Worth seeing.

I recently got tickets for me and oldest in so we can see it at the end of their school term

 

[Dystopiary]

What is this insanity? Who wants men - or women - with guns in toilets? Or anywhere really.

I’m a feminine presenting straight cis woman, but I’m 5’10/11 (and 6’3/4 in my highest heels and therefore taller than all but the tallest men when wearing them), so I might stand out for extra questioning - am I soon going to have to let a ‘protective’ man with a gun look down my knickers in order to be allowed to go for a quick pee?

Just make it stop. Why can’t everyone basically mind their own business and let people get on with their lives.

She's the person who hosted the "Let Women Speak" event that smokedout referred to in post # 280. As smokedout said:

Note the cheers and how unfazed Posie Parker is as she adjusts the microphone. Whilst this is more mask off than usual this type of rhetoric is not uncommon at these rallies. This is what the Gender Critical movement is now, it's what most of them either believe themselves or are happy to stand alongside. JK Rowling and a host of other supposed moderates have all voiced support for these events. Growing numbers of far right figures have been seen in attendence.

 

[xenon]

What I actually did was go for a piss in Whitehall Park. Thus reducing the rather long queue by one.

I've been at events where women frustrated by length of queues ask and usually accepted use the cubicles in men's. That can't happen under this system.

Whatever point you think you are making, in practice system results in slower system for everybody which at a time critical event such as the theatre is daft. Particularly at a show where they literally start plying you with drink at the front door.

Sorry to keep focussing on the toilet thing but how does it make it slower? It's quicker to go for a ppiss as a bloke, whether you use a urinal or a cubicle. As long as there are not fewer toilets over all, this still stands. In fact it will be quicker for women if there are more cubicles in totality.

 

[gosub]

Sorry to keep focussing on the toilet thing but how does it make it slower? It's quicker to go for a ppiss as a bloke, whether you use a urinal or a cubicle. As long as there are not fewer toilets over all, this still stands. In fact it will be quicker for women if there are more cubicles in totality.

Turns out not having to faf with a door saves time + (I think some trough urinals more capacity than straight cubical switch out). The in shut door open door adds up

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Am I the only one wondering what the fuck this toilet argument has got to do with this thread?

 

[Orang Utan]

Went and saw Caberet (thoroughly recommend). They have gender nuetralled the toilets. THAT is is proper bonkers...Old existing building so all doing is reducing amount of toilets. Entire life been aware women end up queuing longer for public loos due to it being cubicals. Getting rid of urinals and making everyone queue for cubicals is nuts. (Different but related toilets issue)

Hard disagree with that

 

[Knotted]

It just makes no sense for me as a meaningful measure for 'women's safety' to try to keep trans people out of the right facilities for them:

• It being illegal to assault women in the first place has failed to stop men assaulting women - making it harder for them to dress as women/'pose as a woman' to do so won't necessarily even stop them doing that, and if it does stop them posing as women, I hardly think such people are going to just give up on abusing women and it's not like toilets and changing rooms are the only place they can find them. It won't reduce sexual assault at all.
• It puts every single trans person is put at risk every single time they go out in public as we know assault and harrassment against them is extremely high and would be even higher if this was forced; it will create far more incidence of crimes against trans people than trans access creates against women
• It will create harrassment and assault (as we've seen) of gender non-conforming people - this is, of course, a feature and not a bug of the idealogy behind this
• If people who are 'so scared' to go into facilities because there 'might be a trans woman in there', why aren't they scared to go in them 'because there might be a man hiding in a cubicle' or because 'a man might follow me in there'? The latter two are more likely than encoutering a trans woman who is a sex offender.

I mean, I hate the arguments one gets into online because the GCs get all 'So how many assualts against women are acceptable then, huh, huh?' Of course none are, but that's not the fault of trans people or trans rights. That's the fault of abusive men and systems that enable them. Maybe let's sort that bit out.

I think you can focus too much on the importance given to women's safety by gender criticals. It's part of it but there's also a panic about trans children. However, I think looking at what GC feminists are saying I think the biggest motivation for the trans mono-mania is this idea that the trans agenda has taken over various institutions - universities, schools, corporations, political parties etc, some will even say the media and police (!). It's conspiracy theory but it looks to them as women getting disempowered, to being silenced.

Every reactionary says "you can't say X anymore," before going on to say exactly X. But I think to a certain kind of feminist it doesn't look like reaction in this case but oppression. Women losing their toe hold on the right to be part of the conversation. They are very focused on altercations involving counter protesters - it amplifies the bunker mentality. And they're very focused on definitions - it's the thing they supposedly can't say. Someone like Kellie Jay-Keen (aka Posie Parker) is adored because she says what she wants to say and takes no prisoners. The fact that she's dropped all pretense at either feminism or gender critique is beside the point. The house is on fire, you can't quibble about these things, if you can get conservatives to help fight the fire then all the better. And the corollary is that they take a you're either with us or against us mentality and that's why they'll be calling you a handmaiden or a TRA. The Posie Parker wing of the movement is terrifying to behold.