Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Transphobes gunning hard for 'paedophilia' angle all of a sudden

Puddy_Tat said:
it's hard to tell how much of it is 'natural' and how much is generations of conditioning in whatever culture any individual has been brought up in?

is it natural that (for example) men / women do / don't do particular jobs, wear particular sorts and colours of clothes and so on? (which does vary between different parts of the world.)
Click to expand...

Well, call me a softie liberal or whatever, but I think the solution to that is to let individuals make the decision for themselves. Some people may want to go with the flow, others seek to swim against against it. Surely either is good so long as coercion and bullying isn't involved?
 
smokedout said:
A lot of this seems to be people insisting on straight lines and strict demarcations between categories, whether that's man/woman, biological/social or lesbian/gay/diagnosed transsexual. But those straight lines don't exist either socially or biologically and attempts to enforce them only causes people pain. Surely a better starting point as a framework to categorise people is what allows people to thrive and feel at ease with themselves in the confines of society as it is today?
Click to expand...

I was listening to skeptics with a k podcast a while ago. They were talking about categorisation being a useful but imperfect tool. For instance we divide animals into species. This model works well. Its a good tool. What is a species? They can breed fertile offspring. But then you get ring species where population A of a species of bird can breed with B and B with C and C with D but A can't breed with D. That isn't the birds' fault. Theyre not wrong. The model/categorisation isn't adequate. When the model and reality don't match reality wins, well, should win.
 
NoXion said:
Well, call me a softie liberal or whatever, but I think the solution to that is to let individuals make the decision for themselves. Some people may want to go with the flow, others seek to swim against against it. Surely either is good so long as coercion and bullying isn't involved?
Click to expand...

i think that's what most people on this thread were saying - letting people (including children) know that there are alternatives to the 'socially accepted normal' and that those alternatives are actually OK, isn't the same as saying the socially accepted normal is wrong.

i'm not quite sure why it's ended up seeming more like an argument...
 
quimcunx said:
I was listening to skeptics with a k podcast a while ago. They were talking about categorisation being a useful but imperfect tool. For instance we divide animals into species. This model works well. Its a good tool. What is a species? They can breed fertile offspring. But then you get ring species where population A of a species of bird can breed with B and B with C and C with D but A can't breed with D. That isn't the birds' fault. Theyre not wrong. The model/categorisation isn't adequate. When the model and reality don't match reality wins, well, should win.
Click to expand...
This is why I feel the whole 'Define a woman! Go on, define a woman!' thing is pointless flim flam, as I've said on other threads. Humans don't function by every single thing having an utterly strict definition, we're actually pretty good at managing exceptions and ambiguity. I don't care what precisely a woman is - I care how people treat one another.
 
quimcunx said:
I was listening to skeptics with a k podcast a while ago. They were talking about categorisation being a useful but imperfect tool. For instance we divide animals into species. This model works well. Its a good tool. What is a species? They can breed fertile offspring. But then you get ring species where population A of a species of bird can breed with B and B with C and C with D but A can't breed with D. That isn't the birds' fault. Theyre not wrong. The model/categorisation isn't adequate. When the model and reality don't match reality wins, well, should win.
Click to expand...

And those classifications are not stable over time. I remember posting a link to an interesting essay when these discussions first began on here which looked at the various ways sex has been classified historically but I've never been able to find it since. But chromosones and gametes didn't play much of a role, sex classification was often socially based and more akin to what with think of gender today (with different formulations of gender in different cultures).
 
Biology + social conditioning + hormones + legal status + culture + ?

Not helped by right wing conspiraloons accusing people of paedophilia.

It seems very complex and I'm fed up of discussing here were there so many straight cis men discussing it without regard for the experience of, or the feelings of those on the sharp end, to whom it's not just theory but a daily and sometimes violent struggle.
 
Cloo said:
This is why I feel the whole 'Define a woman! Go on, define a woman!' thing is pointless flim flam, as I've said on other threads. Humans don't function by every single thing having an utterly strict definition, we're actually pretty good at managing exceptions and ambiguity. I don't care what precisely a woman is - I care how people treat one another.
Click to expand...
I’m just a bit bored with it. There are channels where ‘who can’t define a woman’ has become Keir Starmer’s surname.

It’s never ‘define a man’. There seems to a fetishistic element to restricting the policing to ‘who is a woman’. I have a suspicion that many of those who’ve become obsessed by this subject are frightened they might accidentally have a one night stand with someone who wasn’t born with the vagina they happily - unwittingly - enjoyed.

The heat around all things trans seems wildly out of proportion. It’s almost beyond merely moral panic now, some people and parties and media outlets are obsessed to an unbelievable extent. They see trans related things and perceived threats everywhere. If it doesn’t die down soon (somehow), I see nothing good coming from it.

Is it so hard to just pretty much leave people alone to live their lives in a way that makes their existence bearable?
 
I have only known one transvestite.

Over 35 years ago, our friend Alex decided that he was really an Allison. They worked at a large company, and she used a gender neutral toilet that was a fair piece from where they all worked.

Although most accepted her, one of the guys had a serious issue with the transition and would burst out laughing everytime Allison walked by. Hubby, the manager, had finally had enough of the laughing and snickering. He basically said that he would accept her as a female because he is not some type of pervert that follows someone into the bathroom to see what was between the person's legs. He basically implied that the laughing person was the type of person that would stalk and try to see what was between peoples legs. The snickering stopped shortly after that.

Allison's wife threw her out, and she lived here for a while. My daughters and foster daughter had no problem treating her as a female.

After a while, she decided that she would go back to being Alex. Life was easier as a male.

I often wonder how s/he is doing, but we never heard from her again.
 
spring-peeper said:
I have only known one transvestite.

Over 35 years ago, our friend Alex decided that he was really an Allison. They worked at a large company, and she used a gender neutral toilet that was a fair piece from where they all worked.

Although most accepted her, one of the guys had a serious issue with the transition and would burst out laughing everytime Allison walked by. Hubby, the manager, had finally had enough of the laughing and snickering. He basically said that he would accept her as a female because he is not some type of pervert that follows someone into the bathroom to see what was between the person's legs. He basically implied that the laughing person was the type of person that would stalk and try to see what was between peoples legs. The snickering stopped shortly after that.

Allison's wife through her out, and she lived here for a while. My daughters and foster daughter had no problem treating her as a female.

After a while, she decided that she would go back to being Alex. Life was easier as a male.

I often wonder how s/he is doing, but we never heard from her again.
Click to expand...
Well, that’s a very sad story from start to finish, with the exception of your family’s compassion.

I don’t think transvestite is the correct term for your friend, but I defer to others knowledge here.
 
Tanya1982 said:
Well, that’s a very sad story from start to finish, with the exception of your family’s compassion.

I don’t think transvestite is the correct term for your friend, but I defer to others knowledge here.
Click to expand...


I know it is the wrong word, and I never called her that. I'm crap with labels.

I just used Allison or Alex.

When we remember her, we use the name "Alex/Allison".


eta: The word I wanted was transgender. Took me a bit, but I think that is the correct label.
 
smokedout said:
And those classifications are not stable over time. I remember posting a link to an interesting essay when these discussions first began on here which looked at the various ways sex has been classified historically but I've never been able to find it since. But chromosones and gametes didn't play much of a role, sex classification was often socially based and more akin to what with think of gender today (with different formulations of gender in different cultures).
Click to expand...
And I like to rant about imperial taxonomy and nomenclature. But Im all out of words these days so I just link to other peoples words instead.

IMPERIAL TAXONOMY — Center for Plants & Culture

www.plantsandculture.org www.plantsandculture.org
 
Here I heard the ridiculous "kid in local school identifies as a fox and demanded the school put a litter tray in the toilets". That is highly scary because it's a pretty small community, in a way closed although people come and go. Something presented and accepted as "fact" that someone has knowingly spread as such even though 100% bullshit. To outright turn people to transphobia.

But also making shit up about kids toilet habits, who are the real perverts here? Crazy weird bullshit transphobic rumours, coming soon to a community near you.
 
Oh yes, a head somewhere in the UK wrote a (hilariously roll-eyes) letter to parents to say that no one was identifying as a cat and using a litter tray. I think he started along the line of 'I can't believe I'm having to write this, but....'
 
I wish people understood that transphobia and the current obsession with and terrifying scapegoating of trans people harms every single one of us. We cannot ignore it and when we partake in discussions even, we are partaking in the dehumanising of a section of society. When we refuse to treat trans people as human and valid, we are choosing to become prison guards in trans death camps. You can't live happily in a society like that, it's fucking traumatic even as witnesses.

Trans people are challenging the status quo and making all of us take a good hard look at gender, gender expression, gender roles, patriarchy, misogyny, sexism, homophobia, traditional values, religious views, our own identity and sexualities and capitalism. And that's a lot! And it's creating a lot of fear in those who don't want to look at those things and those who benefit from the cuurent status quo and paradigm.

So it's a lot easier to turn trans people into cattle or objects, or stick them under a microscope to disect and analyse. Cos we fear the mirror they hold up to us and our society.
 
Last edited:
Clair De Lune said:
We cannot ignore it and when we partake in discussions even, we are partaking in the dehumanising of a section of society.
Click to expand...

I can't think of anything else that's like this.

Just that sentence and the hopelessness of it?

tbh i stay silent now because of exactly this idea, that speaking at all might be experienced, by very vulnerable people, as an act of violence, and that's not worth it at all for me.

But is there anything else similar in the whole world where even partaking in a conversation (apart from to say yay go you heart emoji or whatever) is perceived as an act of dehumanisation. i cant think of a single thing.
 
Last edited:
bimble said:
I can't think of anything else that's like this.

Just that sentence and the hopelessness of it?

tbh i stay silent now because of exactly this idea, that speaking at all might be experienced, by very vulnerable people, as an act of violence, and that's not worth it at all for me.

But is there anything else similar in the whole world where even partaking in a conversation (apart from to say yay go you heart emoji or whatever) is perceived as an act of dehumanisation. i cant think of a single thing.
Click to expand...
Not trying to be excessively provocative here, but I read your post and immediately thought "Did six million really die?" I'm sure there are plenty of other examples where justaskingquestions would be perceived as an act of violence/dehumanisation, but that was the first one that came to mind.
 
And it affects us all because the ultimate aim of those most behind the promotion of a transphobic agenda is to get everyone to stick in their gender lanes, which is what the patriarchy wants and needs. We see this is laws in Tenessee that vaguely define 'doing drag in front of children' as a crime, therefore potentially criminalising anyone non gender conforming who is seen by a child. Yes, that's an extreme, but if you start supporting the destruction of trans rights, you start supporting an agenda that wants everyone back in their patriachal boxes.
 
spring-peeper said:
I know it is the wrong word, and I never called her that. I'm crap with labels.

I just used Allison or Alex.

When we remember her, we use the name "Alex/Allison".


eta: The word I wanted was transgender. Took me a bit, but I think that is the correct label.
Click to expand...
Honestly it is OK to not know what terms people want you to use - language can be damaging when it is deliberately used in a malicious way and I will always pull people up on doing that, but it's OK to make a mistake but in good honour, actions count for far more and the compassionate way in which you speak about your friend and the help you gave them says a lot more than getting the exact term right first time.
 
Epona said:
Honestly it is OK to not know what terms people want you to use - language can be damaging when it is deliberately used in a malicious way and I will always pull people up on doing that, but it's OK to make a mistake but in good honour, actions count for far more and the compassionate way in which you speak about your friend and the help you gave them says a lot more than getting the exact term right first time.
Click to expand...
Thank you, I think everyone can agree on that. This is what pisses me off when people say someone like Graham Linehan is being victimised, or repeat the myth that you can be arrested in Canada for accidentally misgendering someone. The Canadian government simply updated their hate crime laws to include gender identity as an aggravating factor. And Glinner did not get "cancelled" because he mistook someone's gender or disagreed on a point, he was banned from Twitter because he was actively HARASSING trans people, up to and including doxxing and posting someone's pre-transition pics without her consent. As you say, no reasonable person would want to ruin the life of someone who's just not sure what to call someone, asks a question in good faith or just makes an honest mistake. I've mistaken someone's gender before, and when corrected, I just apologised and took note and it was never mentioned again. Misunderstandings will happen and it's all good as long as there's respect on all sides.
 
Epona said:
Honestly it is OK to not know what terms people want you to use - language can be damaging when it is deliberately used in a malicious way and I will always pull people up on doing that, but it's OK to make a mistake but in good honour, actions count for far more and the compassionate way in which you speak about your friend and the help you gave them says a lot more than getting the exact term right first time.
Click to expand...
Exactly, and I hope this goes to show those 'culture war' types that us 'wokies' do actually understand context and don't immediate 'cancel' people when they say the wrong thing when it is quite clearly said in good faith and what they are actually saying is kind and supportive!
 
Epona said:
Honestly it is OK to not know what terms people want you to use - language can be damaging when it is deliberately used in a malicious way and I will always pull people up on doing that, but it's OK to make a mistake but in good honour, actions count for far more and the compassionate way in which you speak about your friend and the help you gave them says a lot more than getting the exact term right first time.
Click to expand...


Oh, give it a rest!!!!

Since you always seem to claim that your errors are due to whatever - so terribly sorry that I had a case of temporary word blindness!!!

Now, go away!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

likesfish
Mark Duggans Son pleads guilty to gun crime
2
Replies
57
Views
2K
Spymaster
Spymaster
Pickman's model
what do the police do all day?
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
153
Views
7K
Voley
Voley
Orang Utan
Drag Queen Story Times picketed by protestors who claim that it grooms children and promotes paedophilia
52 53 54 55 56
Replies
2K
Views
68K
hitmouse
hitmouse
W
all these “So and so’s time is up” threads.
2 3
Replies
89
Views
4K
wow
W
bimble
Daily mail gunning for boris johnson - what's going on there?
2 3
Replies
85
Views
5K
two sheds
two sheds
Back
Top Bottom