Transphobes gunning hard for 'paedophilia' angle all of a sudden

[Orang Utan]

Because people are different. We're not all some homogenous mass, and neither are we entirely unique, as social creatures we tend to clump up into different groupings. Femininity, masculinity, and all the things in between and outside of those two are part of how humans come to express themselves. How is that so hard to understand?

It’s very hard to understand from where I'm sitting

 

[NoXion]

It’s very hard to understand from where I'm sitting

Well, humans are clearly not identical, and neither are we hyper-individualised. So how can it be any other way?

 

[friendofdorothy]

Pedophilia used be leveled all the time at gay people back in the day - less so at lesbians but lesbian mothers would routinely lose custody of their children in '80s.

I used to take care of my neice and there were parents who wouldn't allow their children to play in my flat. I knew it was because they were suspicious of our weird lesbian household. At the time I just liked the peace and quiet, of her playing in someone else's flat for a change. Think everyone thought I was her mother because her hetrosexual mum looked more dykey than I did back then.

The gutter press were full of hateful headlines about lesbian, gay and bi people then. Same rhetoric, same hate, it's just a trans people are the target now.

Everyone knows it's cishet men who are the most convicted (or more often not convicted) of pedophilia.

 

[Orang Utan]

Well, humans are clearly not identical, and neither are we hyper-individualised. So how can it be any other way?

I don’t understand.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

This from a month ago

Both men and women were convicted - all of them cisgender.

Twenty-one people have been convicted for their parts in the largest ever child sex abuse case investigated by West Midlands Police.
The offending against seven children, who were 12 years old or younger, took place over nearly a decade in Walsall and Wolverhampton.
The abuse came to light after concerns were raised following a hospital visit by one of the victims.
Thirteen of the defendants have been jailed with four to be sentenced later.
The offences against the children were "some of the most shocking abuse that I've seen in my career", Det Ch Supt Paul Drover said.
"They have been through a significant amounts of trauma. To get the confidence to come forward and to talk to care professionals, to police is huge and I am genuinely thankful," he added.

 

[friendofdorothy]

This from a month ago

Both men and women were convicted - all of them cisgender.

Thanks for posting that.

Feel society is weird toward children. Child abuse seemed to be both unspoken and be socially acceptable when I was young. Children were not believed. The amount of historic sexual abuse coming to light now is horrific.

 

[NoXion]

I don’t understand.

I suspect it's more that you don't want to understand. Humans are social animals, and this is reflected in our behaviour, including gender expression. Human societies across the world and throughout history derive such expressions from the two primary sexes which most (although not all) humans fall into. It's not a cast-iron rule that being born a given sex leads to one expressing the corresponding gender, because individuals vary, and the details of gender expression vary across cultures, but the fact remains that male and female do in fact exist as real social things. They're not completely arbitrary.

 

[Orang Utan]

I suspect it's more that you don't want to understand. Humans are social animals, and this is reflected in our behaviour, including gender expression. Human societies across the world and throughout history derive such expressions from the two primary sexes which most (although not all) humans fall into. It's not a cast-iron rule that being born a given sex leads to one expressing the corresponding gender, because individuals vary, and the details of gender expression vary across cultures, but the fact remains that male and female do in fact exist as real social things. They're not completely arbitrary.

What’s that got do with masculinity?

 

[NoXion]

What’s that got do with masculinity?

Fuck's sake. I give up.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I don’t understand.

Depends on how you use the term. Are beards masculine? Is a certain cut of clothing masculine? Is the love between a man and a fine Cuban cigar masculine?

It can be a useful linguistic short hand for something associated with manhood in general use but I will agree it is not a long jump from gendered language to unnecessarily gendered language.

However of course when people want to express their own gender identity it will be with this kind of stuff. "I love that shirt it gives me real feminine vibes when I wear it".

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I may be waffling. It's late.

 

[belboid]

Fuck's sake. I give up.

I think what OU is getting at is why are certain things masculine and others feminine? How did those labels come to be attached to them? In SS's examples above, the first two have some relation to actual biological differences, but only some. And the third is 100% societal.

 

[Epona]

Because people are different. We're not all some homogenous mass, and neither are we entirely unique, as social creatures we tend to clump up into different groupings. Femininity, masculinity, and all the things in between and outside of those two are part of how humans come to express themselves. How is that so hard to understand?

Honestly it's this sort of shite (however innocuous and well meaning it seems to you, and I want to make it utterly clear this is not aimed at you personally, actually you seem to have been a decent ally about some of this stuff) that qualifies usually as daft harnless bullshit, if it weren't for the fact that our gender identity is kind of policed now

(and if anyone doesn't feel policed, it probably means they cis)

 

[8ball]

Not read the whole thread so slap me down if I’m thinking on the wrong timescale, bit this has been happening for at least a couple of years, hasn’t it?

Eg. “Ok groomer” cropping up sometime in 2021.

 

[NoXion]

Honestly it's this sort of shite that qualifies usually as daft harnless bullshit, if it weren't for the fact that our gender identity is kind of policed now

(and if anyone doesn't feel policed, it probably means they cis)

My take is that it's the policing bit which is bad, not the fact that gender expression tends to cluster into identifiable areas. People are of course going to fall on the edges or outside of those areas, and that's fine too.

 

[NoXion]

I think what OU is getting at is why are certain things masculine and others feminine? How did those labels come to be attached to them? In SS's examples above, the first two have some relation to actual biological differences, but only some. And the third is 100% societal.

My objection is that societal is not the same as fake or bad, which is the implication I'm getting from Orang's obtuse attitude.

 

[belboid]

My objection is that societal is not the same as fake or bad, which is the implication I'm getting from Orang's obtuse attitude.

It frequently is bad though. So we shouldn't just almost blithely dismiss it.

 

[Epona]

Not read the whole thread so slap me down if I’m thinking on the wrong timescale, bit this has been happening for at least a couple of years, hasn’t it?

Eg. “Ok groomer” cropping up sometime in 2021.

Maybe this is what some people here don't really get about it, is it has been relentless.
It's difficult to engage with someone who might mean well when the first approach is this sort of thing, or misgendering.
Like - hackles are up already - for good and understandable reasons

 

[NoXion]

It frequently is bad though.

Only if it's enforced.

 

[Orang Utan]

My take is that it's the policing bit which is bad, not the fact that gender expression tends to cluster into identifiable areas. People are of course going to fall on the edges or outside of those areas, and that's fine too.

Those areas are designated by other people, so why do I have to go along with them if they have no meaning for me?

 

[Orang Utan]

I suspect it's more that you don't want to understand. Humans are social animals, and this is reflected in our behaviour, including gender expression. Human societies across the world and throughout history derive such expressions from the two primary sexes which most (although not all) humans fall into. It's not a cast-iron rule that being born a given sex leads to one expressing the corresponding gender, because individuals vary, and the details of gender expression vary across cultures, but the fact remains that male and female do in fact exist as real social things. They're not completely arbitrary.

A hell of a lot of them are

 

[iona]

Those areas are designated by other people, so why do I have to go along with them if they have no meaning for me?

You don't. Obvs. But while we live in a world where "masculine" and "feminine" exist as concepts with specific traits attached to them, people are gonna continue to use those words to talk about the ideas that describe the world we're in. You can add in a disclaimer to talk about "[thing] that's traditionally been considered masculine/feminine by large parts of [the society/culture/whatever you're talking about]" but who actually speaks like that?

I'm still lucky enough to feel completely untouched by all this but one thing I've noticed recently in online discussion is how many trans people have escape plans now. More Americans than Brits or other nationalities so far, and that covers everything from vaguely being aware of which states or countries are less oppressive and would be possible for that individual to get visas/work/housing/healthcare/etc in, through to having a go bag packed and being ready to drop their entire lives and run at a moment's notice, but it's not something I remember seeing at all say two or three years ago.

 

[Tanya1982]

More madness.

Texas school district scraps James and the Giant Peach trips over cross-gender casting

Trips to see play at Houston’s Main Street Theater cancelled over ‘concerns raised about age-appropriateness of the performance’

www.theguardian.com

Can’t have a male actor play a female insect living inside a piece of fruit. Drag queens, drag queens, drag queens everywhere. In every school, every theatre, every toilet, every dream, every nightmare, and every secret fantasy some people are evidently having. With paranoia escalating to these levels, it can’t be long before women simply wearing a bit too much makeup are being accused of being drag queens and run out of these places for refusing to prove they aren’t.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Should I be upset by a thread discussing the rights or wrongs of my existence?

Yeah I should be upset.

I don't know who that random wanker was who decided to wade in out of literally nowhere to have a go at me was, that pillock is on ignore, but I can't ignore the whole rest of the world, can I?

Especially not when I might actually get punched in the face for not being cis (has actually happened to me btw)

This makes me furious, I'm so sorry Epona. Why do people have to be so nasty and cruel? What's the point?

 

[NoXion]

Those areas are designated by other people, so why do I have to go along with them if they have no meaning for me?

I'm not saying that you have to go along with them. But for me, masculinity is where I feel comfortable. If this makes me some kind of dull conformist in your eyes, well then that's just too bad.

 

[Chilli.s]

I think maybe we've crossed into a new age where transphobes feel emboldened enough that they don't feel the need to hide it from other cis people.

This is quite true. Seems to be a very sorry backward step for society but luckily not all people and hopefully a passing thing.

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm not saying that you have to go along with them. But for me, masculinity is where I feel comfortable. If this makes me some kind of dull conformist in your eyes, well then that's just too bad.

You’ve definitely got the wrong end of the stick here. To me, the concept of masculinity is like a certificate proving something I have no interest in or desire to prove. It’s like having a fictional degree in Wizardry, House Hufflepuff on my fictional library wall. (JKR reference entirely coincidental)

 

[LeytonCatLady]

This kind of thing should concern pretty much everyone who isn't a total conformist, and should probably even concern those of us who are. I'm a cis man who chooses to dress himself in a typically masculine fashion. But I'm also bisexual and neurodivergent. The rabid bigots are not going to stop with trans people and drag queens. These scumbags have a list, and people like me are on it too, or will be in due time. The filth leverage "concerns" as a means of spreading their hatred, and I feel that anything less than a full-throated repudiation of their bile will be inadequate.

Once the miasma of fear that they want has fully settled in, then even the conformists will not be safe.

This. I'm a cis woman with short hair who's been asked if I'm a boy or a girl when not wearing make-up, and mistaken for gay for similar reasons. I'm aro-ace and assumed I was straight for years just because I had never fancied a woman, but then I have never really fancied anybody, sexually or romantically. Some people have mistaken this for confusion over my gender identity, rather than a sexual orientation.
My former flatmate is also a cis woman who's tall and flat chested with a naturally deep voice (genetic), has short hair and isn't into makeup or stereotypically feminine clothes (choice). She's fallen foul of some of self appointed toilet police in the past, who consider her "too butch" for their liking.

I've had arguments about this on Twitter and Reddit with the sort of people who shout "Misogynist!" and "Groomer!" at anyone who defends trans rights and can't grasp why this sort of discrimination affects everyone. Interestingly, it usually seems to come from the sort of people who don't give a shit about women's or children's rights in the normal run of things, but as soon as they can use it to shit on a group they don't like, NOW they're suddenly our allies!

 

[NoXion]

You’ve definitely got the wrong end of the stick here. To me, the concept of masculinity is like a certificate proving something I have no interest in or desire to prove. It’s like having a fictional degree in Wizardry, House Hufflepuff on my fictional library wall. (JKR reference entirely coincidental)

Except that it actually exists, whether you personally like it or not. There are people who define themselves as non-binary. They wouldn't have to do that if the concepts like femininity and masculinity weren't real social phenomena.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'm not saying that you have to go along with them. But for me, masculinity is where I feel comfortable. If this makes me some kind of dull conformist in your eyes, well then that's just too bad.

Well no wonder you are comfortable.

Masculine people = default human = patriarchal norm

If you any other type of human (ie more than half of humanity) then there are issues / problems / abuse to deal with.
Plenty of discomfort over here.