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Transphobes gunning hard for 'paedophilia' angle all of a sudden

mmskyscraper said:
I don’t even know why the Ts get bundled in with the LGBTQs, never mind the Ps.

I actually firmly believe most people who are anti-trans are actually anti-trans-activists, rather than anti trans folk themselves. I can see their point a lot of the time - and finding yourself on the same side as those people, even if it is for different reasons, is unsettling. It fucks up your YouTube algorithm for a start.
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So its fine being a downtrodden minority but if you become politically active to acquire rights then you're a problem? I'm sure people said the same about black people once, and women. OK in their place, but uppity ones are such a nuisance .
 
Cloo said:
This is part of the reason I think it's imperative to get the Tories out at the next election. Yes, even if it means voting Labour. They're pretty shit and just being Tory lite, but I think if they get into power the culture wars will not be a priority for them as they are for the Tories.

The Tories are reliant on them as they can no longer claim to be 'the party of fiscal management' and they don't want to make the effort of doing anything to help any ordinary people. But making policies to shit on outgroups, like trans people, queer people, immigrants, disabled people and benefit claimants is easy and pretty cheap. They are well invested in culture wars and those who support them will be increasingly invested, directly or indirectly, in steering another Tory government towards shoving queerness back in the closet and reversing women's and workers' rights. For all Labour's imperfections, I think those influences would have a harder time getting a grip on them and they'd be more focused on other things.
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Not that I am going to have a vote because I have been disenfranchised due to lack of ID (not for trans reasons, just for me being a bit crap and off the grid reasons)
 
Jennaonthebeach said:
So its fine being a downtrodden minority but if you become politically active to acquire rights then you're a problem? I'm sure people said the same about black people once, and women. OK in their place, but uppity ones are such a nuisance .
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Yes. Yes, that’s exactly what I said isn’t it? Is that what you actually read, or just wanted to read so you could start an argument?

Does someone not thinking the same way that you do annoy you?

FUCK THIS. It’s bedtime in Australia, so over and out.
xx
 
mmskyscraper said:
Yes. Yes, that’s exactly what I said isn’t it? Is that what you actually read, or just wanted to read so you could start an argument?

Does someone not thinking the same way that you do annoy you?

FUCK THIS. It’s bedtime in Australia, so over and out.
xx
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It is what you said. The activists are the ones you have a problem with. Right? Why is that not what you said?

I actually firmly believe most people who are anti-trans are actually anti-trans-activists, rather than anti trans folk themselves. I can see their point a lot of the time
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I'm sorry being on the side of anti trans bigots fucks your YouTube algorithm up though. Must be awful for you.
 
Cloo said:
This is part of the reason I think it's imperative to get the Tories out at the next election. Yes, even if it means voting Labour. They're pretty shit and just being Tory lite, but I think if they get into power the culture wars will not be a priority for them as they are for the Tories.

The Tories are reliant on them as they can no longer claim to be 'the party of fiscal management' and they don't want to make the effort of doing anything to help any ordinary people. But making policies to shit on outgroups, like trans people, queer people, immigrants, disabled people and benefit claimants is easy and pretty cheap. They are well invested in culture wars and those who support them will be increasingly invested, directly or indirectly, in steering another Tory government towards shoving queerness back in the closet and reversing women's and workers' rights. For all Labour's imperfections, I think those influences would have a harder time getting a grip on them and they'd be more focused on other things.
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Got to say, that's relatively ahistorical: Labour were the ones who really started to stick the boot in to benefit claimants, particularly disabled benefit claimants. Their "reforms" to the welfare system have been devastating and in some cases deadly. I think many don't realise that thousands of people who are unable to work long-term disabled and ill have had their lives trashed due to what Labour started, a sword of Damacles hanging over their heads ready to fall the moment someone at the DWP - with the assistance of outsourced private companies which cost the government far more money than any benefit fraud - decides to cut their benefits and leave them impoverished.
 
smokedout said:
I'll presume good faith but probably regret it. The Ts are bundled up with the LGBs because heterosexual society bundled us together. Laws against cross dressing were used to attack gay people leading directly to the Stonewall riots. Gays and lesbians were attacked for not being 'proper' men or women. Society has historically stigmatised all those who break conventional norms relating to gender and sexuality and homophobes don't stop to ask the gender identity of people before putting the boot in. LGBTQ people were queers, benders and fags and no-one really gave a fuck whether they were gay, trans, bi, or something else.

In addition to this many trans people identify as LGB and almost all trans people are likely to face homophobia regardless of what people's views might be on whether someone is a man or woman. A cis man in a relationship with a trans man will face homophobia, whether that's a double hotel room suddenly becoming booked because it's under two male names, or stigmatisation at work for talking about his boyfried or violence and abuse in the street for holding his boyfriend's hand. For all these reasons it is understandable why there is historical solidarity between LGBTQ people and it's difficult not to be suspicious when straight/cis people attempt to prise that solidarity apart at a time when all those under that banner are facing renewed attacks.

If you think there is a world where conservative forces will eliminate trans men and women but leave butch lesbians and camp gay men alone you are dangerously naive - just look at what's happening to drag queens.

As to adding the P to the LGBTQ grow up. Nobody is proposing that, it's a transphobic slur intended to do exactly what the topic of this thread is talking about and link trans people (and LGB people who support them) to paedophilia. Perhaps try watching something else on youtube.
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I read this quickly so forgive me if I'm repeating something you already said, but as far as I can see most or nearly all trans people identified as LGB either prior to transitioning, or afterwards, or, like me, before and after. It's impossible to separate LGB from T.
 
There's something interesting about the polarity/centrism thing here. I remember a few years ago begging people not to bring the most loony excesses from social media (on both sides) into trans threads on here.

Because sure enough even a cursory search on Twitter will bring up completely insane posts on most subjects.

But since then it does seem that there has been an intensification of wild claims in the anti-trans movement and perhaps predictably religious and far right nutcases have seized on the issue. Which must make a particular strand of "sensible" UK feminists a bit queasy you would think.

Part of me hopes that this signals the beginning of the end for this stuff. You might have misgivings about the trans person in your community but when you have actual Nazis and fundamentalists claiming that they are a threat to children I think most people would come down on the side of sense.

The other part of me knows that it will take time for sense to prevail and in the meantime there is going to be a whole lot of bigotry dished out.
 
mmskyscraper said:
I never suggested P should be added, you’ve misunderstood my point which was highlighting that P shouldn’t be in there. Which was, you’ll remember, the point of the OP.
Thanks for the detailed explanation of the other part, although not so much for assuming i was trying to cause divisions. Maybe you’re just used to being attacked. Or maybe it’s just your hormones love. (JOKE).

I’m out now anyway. I posted that I was wary of being misrepresented, and clearly you don’t want ‘centrist’ (if that is a loose analogy) allies, so I’ll just let you fight your own fight.
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Wow
See although it might seem funny, this is the sort of shit that we have to put up with, women too tbh (oh you're being hormonal)
It doesn't seem like much of a joke when you are always on the receiving end of it. (ha ha well done)
I feel like that manages to be both transphobic and misogynist tbh
 
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Also what is the adding P about?

Sorry I am non binary but I don't really keep up with identity politics maybe as well as I should
 
smokedout said:
In addition to this many trans people identify as LGB and almost all trans people are likely to face homophobia regardless of what people's views might be on whether someone is a man or woman. A cis man in a relationship with a trans man will face homophobia, whether that's a double hotel room suddenly becoming booked because it's under two male names, or stigmatisation at work for talking about his boyfried or violence and abuse in the street for holding his boyfriend's hand. For all these reasons it is understandable why there is historical solidarity between LGBTQ people and it's difficult not to be suspicious when straight/cis people attempt to prise that solidarity apart at a time when all those under that banner are facing renewed attacks.

If you think there is a world where conservative forces will eliminate trans men and women but leave butch lesbians and camp gay men alone you are dangerously naive - just look at what's happening to drag queens.
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Spot on.

And without trying to make it all about me, my position on this and feelings about it are grounded in being on the receiving end of homophobic bullying despite being hetero.

This aggressive enforcerment of "normality" never leads anywhere good.
 
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Do the people who say this sort of thing not care that they might be labelling an individual who already finds it difficult enough? :mad:
And putting their life in danger by saying that sort of thing?
 
There's been some frightening developments in the US especially recently. It's looking to me like the preparations made for genocide, and I think we're past the point of alarmism on that front. That kind of murderous shit is also being cultivated elsewhere in the world.

The right wing have no solutions, so they're creating scapegoats instead.
 
It's a bizarre lack of logic as well. These people going 'Well, uhm... they're confusing the boundaries about gender so that will = mass child exploitation' Uh, how? In what way is a more fluid idea of gender going to make children vulnerable to sexual exploitation? There's also this conflation with a wilfully misunderstood idea of sex positivity - that it means everyone is being told they should do all the freaky sex things and love it, not that sex should be enjoyable and people shouldn't be shamed for having the sex they want (or for not having what they don't want) and where consent is paramount. But of course these people portray it as 'Pornifying our children! Telling them they should have sex!' I think you'll find it's mainstream, patriachal society that's doing that, but anyway.

My (non-binary identifying) 14 year old has grown up on social media in a very sex positive context and is immensely more knowing about sex than I was at that age and, you know what, I also think safer than I was (luckily nothing did happen to me and in the end I wasn't sexually active until I was a young adult) - but I think their perspective on sex and consent makes them much safer than many kids would be in previous generations in terms of potential sexual exploitation. That actually brings me back to the 'safer schools' bullshit I started with, one of the claims of which is that by saying children are made safer by a sex positive approach, that amounts to putting all the onus on the child to protect themselves from sexual exploitation. Yet I seem to have missed the bit in the UNESCO/WHO documents where they advocate reducing child protection oversight or treating child sex abuse as just normal exploration of sexuality?
 
It might be just on the internet, but I feel like my life is in danger simply cos I said I have some gender dysphoria and don't feel very female and have come out and said so :(

It's horrifying, the level of hate right now.
Cloo - love to your eldest.
 
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mmskyscraper said:
Maybe you’re just used to being attacked. Or maybe it’s just your hormones love. (JOKE).

I’m out now anyway. I posted that I was wary of being misrepresented, and clearly you don’t want ‘centrist’ (if that is a loose analogy) allies, so I’ll just let you fight your own fight.
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Real big of you, cheers
 
I'll admit I am actually worried that nowadays some wanker could attack my oldest for going into a ladies' loo because said wanker decides they must be a femme-presenting boy (which they could be taken as).

Great work, 'gender criticals', really progressive society.
 
Fozzie Bear said:
Spot on. And without trying to make it all about me, my position on this and feelings about it are grounded in being on the receiving end of homophobic bullying despite being hetero.

This aggressive enforcrment of "normality" never leads anywhere good.
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It's amazingly easy to find oneself on the end of homophobic abuse as a heterosexual man. In my case, all it took was a pair of pink shoes :cool:*.

Fortunately, I have little enough difficulty with being mis-sexualitied that it becomes quite amusing. I am well aware that the experience is different when homophobia is directed at gay people, but if nothing else, I get to challenge the stereotypes a bit.

ETA: * come to think of it, the silver ones also elicited a similar response, although the blue Jacquard dinner jacket probably helped with that.
 
This kind of thing should concern pretty much everyone who isn't a total conformist, and should probably even concern those of us who are. I'm a cis man who chooses to dress himself in a typically masculine fashion. But I'm also bisexual and neurodivergent. The rabid bigots are not going to stop with trans people and drag queens. These scumbags have a list, and people like me are on it too, or will be in due time. The filth leverage "concerns" as a means of spreading their hatred, and I feel that anything less than a full-throated repudiation of their bile will be inadequate.

Once the miasma of fear that they want has fully settled in, then even the conformists will not be safe.
 
mmskyscraper said:
I realise this is a dangerous topic and I’m conscious of misrepresenting myself, but I will just say that whilst you’re certainly right to a point, I think I am too. I’m not talking about some EDL gorilla, I mean you average ‘this is a bit confusing tbh’ person. A lot of people - and I defo include myself in this - just don’t like being told what to think. In my experience (limited, but I do know, respect, and like a couple of trans male kids)...
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I imagine mms may well not be coming back to the thread, but in case they are, just to mention that "trans male kids" is not particularly clear or helpful terminology - if you mean ftm kids, then transmasc kids or trans boys would be the more usual term. If by "trans male kids" you mean trans girls that were assigned male at birth, then probably better to say trans girls or transfem kids or similar. If it is the latter, and you know some trans girls who you insist on calling males, I'm not quite sure how genuine or mutual the "respect and like" bit is.
 
hitmouse said:
I imagine mms may well not be coming back to the thread, but in case they are, just to mention that "trans male kids" is not particularly clear or helpful terminology - if you mean ftm kids, then transmasc kids or trans boys would be the more usual term. If by "trans male kids" you mean trans girls that were assigned male at birth, then probably better to say trans girls or transfem kids or similar. If it is the latter, and you know some trans girls who you insist on calling males, I'm not quite sure how genuine or mutual the "respect and like" bit is.
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"just don’t like being told what to think" is a bit of a red flag too - i see it used as a justification so often from those who hate trans people as if trans people are doing anything differently from all the other minority groups who just asked for a level of respect and some rights so they could live a reasonable life.
 
On some of the posts above, I always think this decade-old speech is a useful reference point:
caringlabor.wordpress.com

Jamrat Mason, Hackney Pride speech

Hackney Pride speech Jamrat Mason [Sept. 2010] [Saliva Click] My speech at Hackney Pride did pretty well. I’ve had some requests for the transcript so I said I would post it here. People we…
caringlabor.wordpress.com caringlabor.wordpress.com
As soon as we’re born boys and girls are treated drasticallly differently- boys are given lego, girls are given dolls (and then people wonder about the lack of female engineers); girls are encouraged to care and talk about their feelings, whilst boys are told to be tough. Every boy and girl, to some extent, has to grapple with the difference between who they are, and what a Real Man is. What a Real Woman is. Every body suffers from the invention of the Man and the Woman. And I consider myself an extreme casualty of this- I don’t really consider myself a Man- but I know, violently, that I’m not a woman. I think that transpeople generally are an extreme casualty of this problem.
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NoXion said:
This kind of thing should concern pretty much everyone who isn't a total conformist, and should probably even concern those of us who are. I'm a cis man who chooses to dress himself in a typically masculine fashion. But I'm also bisexual and neurodivergent. The rabid bigots are not going to stop with trans people and drag queens. These scumbags have a list, and people like me are on it too, or will be in due time. The filth leverage "concerns" as a means of spreading their hatred, and I feel that anything less than a full-throated repudiation of their bile will be inadequate.

Once the miasma of fear that they want has fully settled in, then even the conformists will not be safe.
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This.

And it doesn't matter who you are, so long as you are "not us" in some flexibly defined way, you're "them".

It's a definite Niemoller Situation.
 
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