Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[laptop]

for how long? tbh that strikes me as fairly doubtful- opposition to free movement of people is so much at the heart of Leave that to assume there will be no medium/long-term effect is a bit fanciful. Even the special relationship with Ireland would be up for grabs, something to be used as a bargaining chip in the post-Brexit jockeying for advantage.

This. If a UK outside the EU imposed visa requirements on Poles and Romanians - which as you say is the entire point for Farage et al - then the EU would have little option but to impose visa requirements on UK citizens.

There would be appallingly complicated "transitional arrangements" for those already living in EU member states.

 

[Favelado]

You teach English, don't you? You will have to get a work visa to keep working in Spain, though there will be more competition from returning Spanish folk who now speak fluent English.

Nobody here wants a non-native teacher so I wouldn't worry about that. It's laws that bother me.

 

[coley]

for how long? tbh that strikes me as fairly doubtful- opposition to free movement of people is so much at the heart of Leave that to assume there will be no medium/long-term effect is a bit fanciful. Even the special relationship with Ireland would be up for grabs, something to be used as a bargaining chip in the post-Brexit jockeying for advantage.

As much as I hate to admit it, this anti immigration thing is more about Eastern Europeans (with a mixed view regarding Poland) rather than the influx of refugees, which allows the far right (and I don't include most Kippers in this description) to bang the drum and inflame the Sun and DM readers.
The main reasons I dislike about being a member of this exclusive club, is the lack of democratic accountability and the excessive membership charges.

 

[newbie]

As much as I hate to admit it, this anti immigration thing is more about Eastern Europeans (with a mixed view regarding Poland) rather than the influx of refugees, which allows the far right (and I don't include most Kippers in this description) to bang the drum and inflame the Sun and DM readers.
The main reasons I dislike about being a member of this exclusive club, is the lack of democratic accountability and the excessive membership charges.

Not sure it makes much odds tbh. Whatever the exact motivation behind Leave activists or voters the effect of them winning will be to erect a wall of border and residency bureaucracy where it doesn't currently exist. Refugees and others from outside the EU already face a wall. EU citizens currently don't, but will in the event of Brexit. All of them/us.

As for "lack of democratic accountability", I haven't noticed any in the negotiations Cameron has been carrying out. Some tosh about in-work benefits, a populist but financially irrelevant hit on children and something incomprehensible about protecting the City. Was that what the campaigners have been going on about for decades? No of course it wasn't, it was decided on behind closed doors.

In the event of Brexit, who will be accountable for the size and shape of the wall, and of all the other changes that will be imposed on us? Who will decide the precise details of the negotiations between our Plucky Island and the EU, between the Jolly Good Chaps and the US government/Wall St (is there an acronym for TTIP targetted specifically at us?) and what the poxy City can and can't do? I'll tell you- the Tory government between now and 2020, unfettered so long as their majority holds. Any new incoming government in 2020 will have to renegotiate anything they don't like. That isn't democratic accountability, it's a blank piece of paper for a redesign of what it means to be British.

 

[laptop]

That isn't democratic accountability, it's a blank piece of paper for a redesign of what it means to be British.

Which is precisely what the anti-EU Tories want. To be ruthlessly incompetent with no checks or accountability.

And this statment isn't mere rhetoric. It's the view I've formed from encounters with them.

 

[Sprocket.]

Ok then,no Yorkshire pudding, he will have to exist on Aldis 'meals for one' a rich smorgasbord of cuisines from all parts of the world

Is it possible to retain the Yorkshire puds and turn down the roll mops and that would be fine and dandy.

 

[Mr Moose]

Which is precisely what the anti-EU Tories want. To be ruthlessly incompetent with no checks or accountability.

And this statment isn't mere rhetoric. It's the view I've formed from encounters with them.

Yep and anyone from the left campaigning for exit is a dimwit.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So a man who came in saying he wants to to make the party more accountable to the membership should add the caveat *except when he doesn't agree

Currently.
Why can't people take on board Corbyn's expressed aim of restoring party democracy, and take from that the very real possibility of the membership changing the rules (democratically!) to require the leader to follow the membership line?
It's not exactly a complicated concept.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Currently.
Why can't people take on board Corbyn's expressed aim of restoring party democracy, and take from that the very real possibility of the membership changing the rules (democratically!) to require the leader to follow the membership line?
It's not exactly a complicated concept.

Why doesn't anyone with more than a single neurone take Corbyn seriously? Because he is a dithering clown. He fears assination so much that he is not even attempting to stamp his will on the party.

How could anyone take a man seriously, who advocates spending billions to keep a few shipbuilders employed, by building the next generation of Trident, but with no nukes. What will his next wheeze be? Manufacturing rifles with a solid barrel. It employs rifle makers without having to fire nasty bullets.

 

[butchersapron]

It's the pills.

 

[Sasaferrato]

London is London. IIRC you need to be an inhabitant to be able to vote.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Aye whey, we are going to have the chance to dump the whole shitty bunch of them, the Greeks should have left and told them to whistle for their money.

They may still do that.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Oh dear

They've gone for the slogan

The safe option is to #VoteLeave

I'll tell you something, were I Cameron and won the referendum, every one of those people would be out of the Cabinet sharpish.

 

[1%er]

So Boris says he is for Vote Leave

In a statement Mr Johnson said that after a “huge amount of heartache” he had made the “agonisingly difficult” decision to go against David Cameron and “advocate Vote Leave”. But significantly he suggested that a no vote might not necessarily result in the UK pulling out of the EU altogether instead, creating a “new relationship based upon trade and cooperation”. Speaking outside his home, Mr Johnson said the EU was "a political project that has been going on for decades, and is now in real danger of getting out of proper democratic control". Mr Johnson said he couldn't "pass up the only chance any of us have in our lifetimes to put an alternative point of view".

Also on BBC now

 

[Sasaferrato]

Not sure it makes much odds tbh. Whatever the exact motivation behind Leave activists or voters the effect of them winning will be to erect a wall of border and residency bureaucracy where it doesn't currently exist. Refugees and others from outside the EU already face a wall. EU citizens currently don't, but will in the event of Brexit. All of them/us.

As for "lack of democratic accountability", I haven't noticed any in the negotiations Cameron has been carrying out. Some tosh about in-work benefits, a populist but financially irrelevant hit on children and something incomprehensible about protecting the City. Was that what the campaigners have been going on about for decades? No of course it wasn't, it was decided on behind closed doors.

In the event of Brexit, who will be accountable for the size and shape of the wall, and of all the other changes that will be imposed on us? Who will decide the precise details of the negotiations between our Plucky Island and the EU, between the Jolly Good Chaps and the US government/Wall St (is there an acronym for TTIP targetted specifically at us?) and what the poxy City can and can't do? I'll tell you- the Tory government between now and 2020, unfettered so long as their majority holds. Any new incoming government in 2020 will have to renegotiate anything they don't like. That isn't democratic accountability, it's a blank piece of paper for a redesign of what it means to be British.

FFS! The European body which imposes checks has nothing to do with the EU, it has to with ECHR, to which we are at present a signatory. Preventing the ECHR from interfering can be done by abrogating from that particular body, it doesn't involve leaving the EU.

Yes, I do wish us to leave the ECHR, it is unconscionable that a court out-with our borders can arbitrarily strike down our legislation.

 

[Sasaferrato]

So Boris says he is for Vote Leave

In a statement Mr Johnson said that after a “huge amount of heartache” he had made the “agonisingly difficult” decision to go against David Cameron and “advocate Vote Leave”. But significantly he suggested that a no vote might not necessarily result in the UK pulling out of the EU altogether instead, creating a “new relationship based upon trade and cooperation”. Speaking outside his home, Mr Johnson said the EU was "a political project that has been going on for decades, and is now in real danger of getting out of proper democratic control". Mr Johnson said he couldn't "pass up the only chance any of us have in our lifetimes to put an alternative point of view".

Also on BBC now

Big gamble Boris. If Cameron loses, he will be the next PM, if Cameron wins, he is in the political wilderness.

 

[1%er]

Big gamble Boris. If Cameron loses, he will be the next PM, if Cameron wins, he is in the political wilderness.

I think his choice will go down well with the grass-routes of the party, so while it may cost him in the short term if Cameron wins, maybe long-term 2020 or shortly after, it will help him.

Will his view change the way people vote in the referendum?

Time will tell

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So, the bullingdon boys square up for the prize they both naturally consider their own.

What a dismal spectacle.

 

[1%er]

So, the bullingdon boys square up for the prize they both naturally consider their own.

What a dismal spectacle.

It would seem that is what British politics has descended to, almost as bad as in the USA

 

[hash tag]

What a circus that gob shites announcement became. I am sure his views will influence a few people but I don't believe he necessarily wants out. He simply wants to back the winning vote in order to help his claim for leadership. He is not to be trusted.

 

[stethoscope]

BBC saying Johnson will give the campaign 'real charisma'. Yeah, that's what the debate needs, thanks for that insight Beeb.

 

[coley]

I'll tell you something, were I Cameron and won the referendum, every one of those people would be out of the Cabinet sharpish.

I have no doubt they will be, whatever the result it will be followed by the night of long knives

 

[Sasaferrato]

What a circus that gob shites announcement became. I am sure his views will influence a few people but I don't believe he necessarily wants out. He simply wants to back the winning vote in order to help his claim for leadership. He is not to be trusted.

What do you mean he's not to be trusted? He is a politician. None of them can be trusted.

 

[gosub]

I have no doubt they will be, whatever the result it will be followed by the night of long knives

'Whatever happens in the EU referendum, Cameron is finished'

 

[Gromit]

BBC saying Johnson will give the campaign 'real charisma'. Yeah, that's what the debate needs, thanks for that insight Beeb.

Modern politics.

Who needs facts when politicians misrepresent, ignore, spin, exaggerate, hide, confuse, switch, engineer, underplay, dismiss and just plain fabricate facts as and how they please.

It's too much like hard work for the voting plebs to find out the facts for themselves. So people are more than happy to just take the word of famous people. The more famous the better. Doesn't matter how they got famous. They must be doing something right.

 

[brogdale]

Is Peter Bone any relation to anarchist Ian Bone? Probably a stupid suggestion but it isn't that common a surname!

Peter is, of course, Ian Bone's father.

 

[butchersapron]

Modern politics.

Who needs facts when politicians misrepresent, ignore, spin, exaggerate, hide, confuse, switch, engineer, underplay, dismiss and just plain fabricate facts as and how they please.

It's too much like hard work for the voting plebs to find out the facts for themselves. So people are more than happy to just take the word of famous people. The more famous the better. Doesn't matter how they got famous. They must be doing something right.

Note the FACTS in this post.

 

[LeslieB]

Peter is, of course, Ian Bone's father.

Ian is older than his dad, then

 

[brogdale]

Ian is older than his dad, then

So you're not hard of googling, then?

 

[butchersapron]

Ian is older than his dad, then

And you're still here - miracles do happen.