butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Themselves I expect.
Tory UK EU Exit Referendum
- Thread starter paolo
- Start date
I don't think Farage will persuade anyone, in the sense that anyone who is a fan of Farage is already likely to be totally committed to voting 'out'.
Galloway may help persuade those on the left, although he's never been the same since that ill advised decision to go on big brother. It's a shame Tony Benn is no longer with us.
It'll also be interesting to see which way the Muslim vote goes in this referendum. Not that they will neccesarily be influenced by Galloway either of course.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And we're off. Like you promised to be.
What are you on about?
youngian
Well-Known Member
I know what Tory and Labour In campaign narratives are. And I know what Farage and Lawson's Out politics are all about. But what is the left offering post-Brexit? Galloway and Hoey morph between Tony Benn and soft nationalism depending on what day of the week it is.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
do you think george galloway will have the slightest thing to offer if there's a vote to leave?
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Fuck what Galloway and Hoey think. Fuck Farage and Lawson too. That's my point, stop framing and aligning the debate by just what certain political faces in either camps might want.
And it's a perfectly reasonable one.
But if you are going to say that then you also have to say "Fuck what Cameron and Osborne think. Fuck Corbyn and O'Donnell too"
And then make up your own mind.
youngian
Well-Known Member
The left and trade union No campaign in the mid-70s was to oppose the Treaty of Rome in order to implement a nationalist-protectionist autarky. I don't see how you can even install exchange controls in a world of e-commerce. You probably can with Chinese style firewalls but good luck to George arguing that one on the doorsteps
How would you frame the debate, and if you had any success in doing so than you would be a politician wouldn't you?
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
newbie
undisambiguated
Has anybody really thought every aspect through? I'd be more suspicious of those claiming to have done so than of those currently firmly one side or the other.
But more generally I agree that it's too early for firm views on the overall question. I suspect most have contradictory views on the different aspects of it, tend towards Leave because this, towards Stay because that. Over the course of the runup to the ref the personal weight given to each aspect of the debate will change, both as +/- arguments develop for any given topic and as the significance becomes more apparent.
Which means that I anticipate that on some specifics individuals will argue on the same side as each other, but will disagree on something else. It's going to be quite interesting.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I doubt it, and I'm certainly not claiming that for myself.
That said, if any individual/group representing 'the left' presents either option as anything other than part of the process of accelerated neo-liberalism, they are being completely disingenuous.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Frame it around what is important for a pro-socialist left, pro-working class, and anti-capital standpoint and what realistically staying in/coming out will mean. I've got no answers to that btw, I'm trying to negotiate what might be 'better' in this whole shit situation as much as anyone (having shifted towards out from in which was my position for years). But the predominant narrative we're getting isn't coming from the above standpoint, it's reducing people to lazy notions of 'you're a Tory/UKipper if you want out'. And when that doesn't work, 'you're with Galloway/Hoey'. Jesus.
It is certainly one right wing group against another in some respects.
However I would say 'remain' would be what the neo liberals want. If you want to oppose neo liberal globalisation and the global race to the bottom, I would vote 'leave'.
But then I'm something of a 'soft nationalist' as 'youngian' called it in post#845 above
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Is that the benefits driven terrorism that threatens our hardworking families?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Ex-Tory MP for Harlow, Jerry Hayes on Boris Johnson's weathercock politics.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I suspect this is it, just like the Tories and Hilary Benn thought that if he said internationalism three times and mentioned the International Brigades and compared both to NATO bombing Syria then that would be the secret password to everyone on the left supporting it.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
They're casting him as a kind of 21st century Churchill.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
being as everything churchill did was an abject failure until he reached the age of 65 what can they possibly mean?
youngian
Well-Known Member
Will the press destroy him or will all be well for good ol' Boris after Ian Hislop sets him up with a few self-deprecating quips on HIGNFY?Ex-Tory MP for Harlow, Jerry Hayes on Boris Johnson's weathercock politics.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
they should have tried 'well-groomed' over the past five years to see if such would have any effect
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
If I keep mumbling or perhaps chanting 'in a gulag' enough times will that work?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
together we can make it happen
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