Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[DrRingDing]

Ian is older than his dad, then

Who are you?

 

[Gromit]

Note the FACTS in this post.

87% of science supports my calculations.

 

[Favelado]

London is London. IIRC you need to be an inhabitant to be able to vote.

Half the people who voted for Boris will insist in conversation that they live in Surrey or wherever. They don't want to be Londoners. They just want their way.

 

[coley]

'Whatever happens in the EU referendum, Cameron is finished'

If I had the slightest doubt that article would have removed it, we are faced with an unelected government we can never change as opposed to a bunch of wankers and pig gobblers who, if the electorate ever comes to its senses, we can get rid of, no contest!

 

[coley]

Modern politics.

Who needs facts when politicians misrepresent, ignore, spin, exaggerate, hide, confuse, switch, engineer, underplay, dismiss and just plain fabricate facts as and how they please.

It's too much like hard work for the voting plebs to find out the facts for themselves. So people are more than happy to just take the word of famous people. The more famous the better. Doesn't matter how they got famous. They must be doing something right.

If his decision leads to an out vote? Gannon Boris

 

[coley]

Note the FACTS in this post.

Aye, but it's not going to be decided on facts is it? It's going to be decided on spin and presentation, more the pity.

 

[butchersapron]

Aye, but it's not going to be decided on facts is it? It's going to be decided on spin and presentation, more the pity.

Possibly, but that person has no right to moan ABOUT FACTS after that post.

 

[coley]

Not sure it makes much odds tbh. Whatever the exact motivation behind Leave activists or voters the effect of them winning will be to erect a wall of border and residency bureaucracy where it doesn't currently exist. Refugees and others from outside the EU already face a wall. EU citizens currently don't, but will in the event of Brexit. All of them/us.

As for "lack of democratic accountability", I haven't noticed any in the negotiations Cameron has been carrying out. Some tosh about in-work benefits, a populist but financially irrelevant hit on children and something incomprehensible about protecting the City. Was that what the campaigners have been going on about for decades? No of course it wasn't, it was decided on behind closed doors.

In the event of Brexit, who will be accountable for the size and shape of the wall, and of all the other changes that will be imposed on us? Who will decide the precise details of the negotiations between our Plucky Island and the EU, between the Jolly Good Chaps and the US government/Wall St (is there an acronym for TTIP targetted specifically at us?) and what the poxy City can and can't do? I'll tell you- the Tory government between now and 2020, unfettered so long as their majority holds. Any new incoming government in 2020 will have to renegotiate anything they don't like. That isn't democratic accountability, it's a blank piece of paper for a redesign of what it means to be British.[/QUOT
Aye, your right pigpyet has smoothly avoided all that, but his claim to have renegotiated our position within the EU is an outright lie,as even any casual reading of the realities will show.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Boris going to Leave is interesting, if Cameron loses then the leadership of the tory party will be open. If he wins...

 

[coley]

Why doesn't anyone with more than a single neurone take Corbyn seriously? Because he is a dithering clown. He fears assination so much that he is not even attempting to stamp his will on the party.

How could anyone take a man seriously, who advocates spending billions to keep a few shipbuilders employed, by building the next generation of Trident, but with no nukes. What will his next wheeze be? Manufacturing rifles with a solid barrel. It employs rifle makers without having to fire nasty bullets.

Try to take him seriously for a moment, a well intentioned bloke with admittedly some dodgy baggage from years ago, suddenly elected to the position of head of HMG official opposition, trying to get his elderly head around this massive transformation in his life!
Disappointed he didn't stick to his principles re; the labour left wants out.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Why doesn't anyone with more than a single neurone take Corbyn seriously? Because he is a dithering clown. He fears assination so much that he is not even attempting to stamp his will on the party.

How could anyone take a man seriously, who advocates spending billions to keep a few shipbuilders employed, by building the next generation of Trident, but with no nukes. What will his next wheeze be? Manufacturing rifles with a solid barrel. It employs rifle makers without having to fire nasty bullets.

We have aircraft carriers without any plane to take off from them ffs.

 

[coley]

It would seem that is what British politics has descended to, almost as bad as in the USA

In fairness, Boris the arsehole is preferable to Trump by a huge margin, now if Boris was to start talking about building a wall between the North and the South and expecting the North to pay for it?
Oops, forgot about Hinckley point and HS 2

 

[coley]

We have aircraft carriers without any plane to take off from them ffs.

But BAE needs to keep its shareholders happy, do keep up

 

[kebabking]

We have aircraft carriers without any plane to take off from them ffs.

actually, its the other way around - the first carrier is owned by BAE while its still being fitted out, it won't be owned by the RN until late this year and commissioned in 2017 - however the MOD owns, and operates, a number of F-35's that are currently in the US as part of the training and flight evaluation programme.

neither will be effective until 2019/2020, but they will become effective at the same time - the 'aircraft carrier with nothing to fly them off' trope is very similar to having a barny about which you should buy first, a car, or the child safety seats to fit in that car - particularly if you buy the car, drive it out of the showroom and 45 seconds later pull up outside Mothercare to buy child seats. its the mark of an ill-informed idiot.

its also remarkably ignorant - we do have an aircraft carrier, and have had from long before the Invincible class carriers were sold to Gillette: its HMS Ocean, she weighs 22,000 tons and her aircraft played a significant role in the Libya operation. you'd assume that those who make out that they are reasonably well informed Defence watchers would have noticed a war and a 22,000 ton ship that looks like an aircraft carrier...

 

[Kaka Tim]

Cameron may have cooked his goose. Like Osbourne, hes a smooth shyster rather than an ideological dogmatist, spinning and bullshitting his way out of trouble and basing his politics as much on tactical advantage rather than a coherent strategy - hence this fucking dismal referendum.
The whole "re negotiating the UKs membership" schtick was always a transparent charade that would only ever amount to some irrelevant tinkering - but still managing to piss off the rest of europe. The anti-euro papers were never going to buy it and he was always going to end up looking like a cunt.
Basically his ducking and diving has caught up with him and hes looking more and more like William H Macy's character in Fargo - trapped in a web of his own bullshit maneuvering.

Its quite something how little authority he has over his own party - and how much of them despise him - when you consider that he won them their first majority government in over 20 years only 9 months ago.

I still think the result will be a vote to stay in - but not by a huge margin. The "IN" camp playing on the fear and uncertainty of voting "out" will see to that.

But the Tory sceptics will not forgive cameron for winning - they will cry foul and the resulting tory leadership battle will another round of EU rage.

Oh god - wake me up when its all over ....

 

[free spirit]

aits also remarkably ignorant - we do have an aircraft carrier, and have had from long before the Invincible class carriers were sold to Gillette: its HMS Ocean, she weighs 22,000 tons and her aircraft played a significant role in the Libya operation. you'd assume that those who make out that they are reasonably well informed Defence watchers would have noticed a war and a 22,000 ton ship that looks like an aircraft carrier...

Can't Ocean only use helicopters since the Harriers were decommissioned?

 

[gosub]

In that case, it's fucked. Can't see that campaign being dominated by anyone other than UKIP and the eurosceptic wing of the Tory party.

There has been talk the vote leave,supported by the Tory cabinet members is about leveraging a better deal for associate membership rather than leaving, Boris column Boris Johnson exclusive: There is only one way to get the change we want - vote to leave the EU does nothing to dispell that view, associate membership for UK is part of the five presidents plan . Grassroots out supported by backbenchers actually wants out. Electoral Commission decides which gets the gig in 6weeks.

We could potentially be headed to a sham referendum where you can have any colour you like as long as its black. Leave is unfortunately going to spend the next month fighting among itself.


RMT also for grassroots

 

[pengaleng]

I'm gonna vote to leave, fuck europe.

 

[youngian]

What else can Johnson do to make his self-serving egomania clearer, grab a baby for a bullet shield? He's put himself before party, country and government because he can't wait his turn to grab Dave's job.

I'm gonna vote to leave, fuck europe.

Not exactly a piercing analysis but should be enough to get you into UKIP.

 

[mauvais]

Can't Ocean only use helicopters since the Harriers were decommissioned?

Ocean's a helicopter platform. It was never an aircraft carrier in the meaningful sense - it could transport Harrier but they couldn't take off from it in any useful capacity.

 

[Mr Moose]

What do you mean he's not to be trusted? He is a politician. None of them can be trusted.

Which is something you may wish to bear in mind before echoing Farage and Galloway's views on the EU.

 

[stethoscope]

Christ, fucking liberals already trying to control the narrative of this whole debate into 'if you want out, then look at the people you're siding with'. Well, all the financial institutions want to stay in, so where does that leave you? Is this really your political analysis?

 

[redsquirrel]

Christ, fucking liberals already trying to turn this whole debate into 'if you want out, then look at the people you're siding with'. Well, all the financial institutions want to stay in, so where does that leave you? Is this really your political analysis?

Either that or anyone arguing for a leave vote is a ideologue, and of course those are bad.

 

[brogdale]

Either that or anyone arguing for a leave vote is a ideologue, and of course those are bad.

I'm rather suspicious of anyone with a firm view, either way. That suggests that they haven't thought this through.

 

[stethoscope]

I'm rather suspicious of anyone with a firm view, either way. That suggests that they haven't thought this through.

It's certainly much more complicated than 'look who else you're siding with'. I hope that this debate (I mean generally in the public sphere, not urban especially although I'm seeing it here already) can produce some more detailed and nuanced analysis of all the pros and cons, rather than 'if you're in you're with this, if you're out you're with this'.

 

[killer b]

I wonder why they thought letting Galloway join the leave campaign was a good idea?

 

[bi0boy]

I wonder why they thought letting Galloway join the leave campaign was a good idea?

They probably think all the lefties love him

 

[stethoscope]

I wonder why they thought letting Galloway join the leave campaign was a good idea?

It did seem a slightly strange spectacle - Farage and Galloway. Is that supposed to persuade anyone?

 

[butchersapron]

I wonder why they thought letting Galloway join the leave campaign was a good idea?

Who is they though?

 

[killer b]

Who is they though?

I'm not sure. I guess someone must have put together the speakers at that 'grassroots' leave thing though - so them.