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Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

my dilemma in a nutshell.

Head or heart?

Brexit has not won any of the arguments, here, in the mainstream, elsewhere, in my head. Hollow positions that rely on Wishful Thinking, sticking up two fingers and not much else. And a campaign dominated by virulently right wing xenophobes, incompetent pillocks and free market evangelists. Not here, thankyou all for the U75 island of relative sanity. But out there in the communities, the constituencies and top end politics they're the ones poised and organised to build the future they dream about. It's not what's dreamed about on here and it's not what I want.

TBH my heart isn't as pure as I wish it was. I've never endorsed the status quo and the thought of voting with the establishment makes me feel sick. I have two fingers too, I want their power broken not bolstered. I recognise there is just the possibility that Brexit might lead to a resurgence in class struggle during a 'disruption to capital'. GOK how, there's nothing visible to give any hope. But I can't, in good conscience, vote for what my head insists will make millions of lives objectively worse than staying in, for years to come. I just can't. It's not a binary choice, but if push comes to shove I'd rather millions of people didn't have to go through intense class struggle fighting back against crap conditions I'd deliberately voted to bring about. Or, more likely, sullen atomised acceptance of ever crapper conditions I'd deliberately voted to bring about.

The ballot is on my desk staring at me. i have to fill it in and post it today. I've never been this conflicted before.
Haven't really thought of the disruption of capital in terms of resurgence of class struggle; part of the "true landscape of uncertainties" Henri de Castries talks of I suppose. Been thinking more in terms of the capital flight and disruption to capitial in terms of member states. But given who he is and where he'd been the day before. I found the unpreparedness for negotiations line and no special treatment with the bloc line reassuring. As I understand things the smaller EUropean states have known exactly what they've wanted to do (certainly in relation to the EUro) and been blocked by Germany. Where German exceptionalism can only grow with time. Its box them in now or they dictate terms.
 
Where German exceptionalism can only grow with time. Its box them in now or they dictate terms.
that's back to whether the plucky little British trawler steers a course with the German fleet or much closer to the American one. Neither are attractive. No-one has said anything convincing about Atlanticism.
 
Yet it's the Remain campaign that is being labelled as 'Project Fear'.

I really hate that this kind of horrible shit is getting such a boost and isn't being robustly challenged by the press or other politicians, just a few people whining on facebook. See also the leaflet I got through my door a couple of days ago going on about Turkey's ascension, complete with a map showing it bordering Iraq and Syria. It's not going to stop after the referendum either, these cunts have the wind in their sails.
 
.. The ballot is on my desk staring at me. i have to fill it in and post it today. I've never been this conflicted before.
I hope you managed to make your mind up in the end.
And if you can't then I would plump for the lesser of two evils.
 
fuck me you've had a dull life
that's why i occasionally post here. How's your exciting life coming along?

Voted stay with a heavy heart.

thanks outers, you tried but you didn't convince.

That's it from me on these threads until after the result and immediate fallout. Enjoy yourselves.
 
that's why i occasionally post here. How's your exciting life coming along?

Voted stay with a heavy heart.

thanks outers, you tried but you didn't convince.

That's it from me on these threads until after the result and immediate fallout. Enjoy yourselves.
You could have spoilt with a light heart.
 
Really? Are there far right people voting to stay in?
Tbh we always knew there were unsavoury people on the exit side. Don't tell me you didn't know ukip wanted Britain to leave the EU. To my mind the issue isn't 'what are ukip and other radical right groups doing' but which offers more prospect for positive change. Stop in the eu where we know how things are done and which themselves sided with fascists in Ukraine, or fuck shit up by voting to leave.
 
Its not like Remain are much better sadly.

I feel this is the major problem here, even more than the usual election cycle, arsehole vs arsehole. How do you pick?

As I see the closest Remain have gotten to Brexit is having Geldof making Wanker signs at Farage...
 
Some light entertainment from someone who doesn't seem to have grasped the difference between England and the UK and which of those entities is voting to leave the EU.

Fairly sure this was not intended as a parody.



CONSCIENCE

In the name of conscience, what the Dickens is going on in this deeply serious referendum? Both sides should be bowing their heads in shame.

During these months of unacceptably opaque campaigning, I feel the same sense of ‘oncoming doom’ as I felt before the Iraq war. I campaigned, marched, wrote letters and was restrained from being tied to 10 Downing Street railings in case it looked like self-promotion.(!) How I regretted that moment of vanity – at moments like these, who cares what people think?

Again I have this sense of ‘oncoming doom’, but this time with added shame. Why have both sides allowed such a lack of conscience to take hold? It is common throughout history, after the fall of an Empire for decadence to follow, and I fear with this referendum we have to be vigilant and guard against it at all costs.

One of the reasons I returned home from LA in the late seventies was because I felt a lack of conscience springing up, and the difference between a lie and the truth being nonchalantly waved aside. We all fib sometimes, but I was convinced England’s morality would be in a far healthier state. Oh dear,fancy throwing away those brilliantly creative swinging sixties, simply to swing from the US coat tails!

For England’s freedom and democracy my father had his horse shot from under him twice on the battlefield during World War One. His desk was stuffed full of medals including the Military Cross and he must’ve been a pretty effective spy in World War Two because the family never knew until recently. That is because he possessed a fearless integrity that stemmed from an overwhelming sense of duty and love for his country. Whereas in today’s pathetically grey small mindedness, any sense of reverence for England, its language, the greatness of its people and its glorious land, has become politically incorrect.

There will never be peace without justice and never justice without sharing. Therefore, one day, unification could be a wondrous way forward – but first we have to grow up. Unity has to be birthed at the grass routes with the goodwill, love and respect of the ordinary people. Unity without democracy, conscience and moral fortitude is doomed to fail.

Thus a timely retreat is urgently called for. Retreat at the right moment is far more courageous than plunging headlong into the murky disarray of greed and corruption: a Shangri-la for the elite, lining their pockets while sipping on the Devil’s gravy train, sloshing their way, ducking and diving, towards the inevitable United States of Europe. Onwards still further, as they proceed towards world government, where we’ll have the elite verses the masses.

Why are there so few with the vision to see how we could run and even fly if we discarded this false unification? If my father were alive today, he would shake his head in despair, finding our present cowardice shameful, totally incomprehensible and certainly not what he fought and risked his life for. But then he fought for freedom and democracy and the EU is neither.
 
Tbh we always knew there were unsavoury people on the exit side. Don't tell me you didn't know ukip wanted Britain to leave the EU. To my mind the issue isn't 'what are ukip and other radical right groups doing' but which offers more prospect for positive change. Stop in the eu where we know how things are done and which themselves sided with fascists in Ukraine, or fuck shit up by voting to leave.
I have to disagree. The rw Brexiters are filth. Not trying to have a row, I know people here are sound, but I'm now deffo voting in.
 
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