Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[Pickman's model]

What Chinese steel is that and where has it failed "catastrophically"?

In his imagination

 

[treelover]

What do you mean by that? The JC4PM account has come out with some weird stuff before but surely you mean it is someone commenting on it rather than the actual account making that sort of bigoted statement?

there are a number of comments like this on those sites,

my worry is the middle class will finally abandon the poor if they see them as all outers.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm a cautious remainer but its becoming clear that brexit for many poor working class people is a big FU to the comfortably off and a cry for help, sneering at them like many of the liberal left have done is counterproductive.

Yep. A cameronite as I thought.

 

[brogdale]

there are a number of comments like this on those sites,

my worry is the middle class will finally abandon the poor if they see them as all outers.

"will"?

 

[hot air baboon]

...the dynamic that slightly concerns me is that people who had decided to register Leave purely as a protest vote on the assumption it was going down to heroic plucky defeat and largely tuned out Remain's Foghorn of Doom might succumb to second thoughts if Brexit actually looks like winning...but as long as that's "in the numbers"...

 

[J Ed]

there are a number of comments like this on those sites,

my worry is the middle class will finally abandon the poor if they see them as all outers.

Pretty sure that the sort of middle-class person who thinks that way is already long past the point of ever being an ally of any sort of politics I want any part in.

 

[treelover]

It can’t see that a steel plant closing, or the boarded-up shops of the east coast, or the eastern Europeans in the Fen towns picking peas in return for a box of chicken and chips have resulted in another type of anti-globalisation protest, which is, of course, Brexit. Wages are down, escape routes blocked, and yet the London political class venture to these half-empty shopping centres to bring glad tidings of the contribution of immigrants. They will care for us when we are old, and, anyway, there is a new Eritrean restaurant you should try. Loft conversion, you say? Here is the number of my Polish/Brazilian builders.

Suzanne Moore doesn't hold back here.

 

[gosub]

What Chinese steel is that and where has it failed "catastrophically"?

iirc they are building a simlar one in France and the steel on the core casing was found to be so flawed they had to recast, which lead to doubts about Hinkley

 

[Pickman's model]

Suzanne Moore doesn't hold back here.

Yet you follow David Cameron's bremain

 

[treelover]

Doesn't mean I agree with her, does it?

 

[Pickman's model]

Doesn't mean I agree with her, does it?

Do you know something about David Cameron you should tell us?

 

[mather]

Pretty sure that the sort of middle-class person who thinks that way is already long past the point of ever being an ally of any sort of politics I want any part in.

Indeed. There are many things wrong with the left and many of the assumptions that they hold, one of them being the view that soft-left middle class types and liberals are in any way our allies or that they are somehow the 'nicer' and 'more progressive' faction of the establishment and capital. Unfortunately we live in an era where it is politically fashionable to debate any issue other than class and economic power relations. Many on the left have fallen for this unfortunate development as they now waste their time and resources on non-issues and distractions like identity politics and the like.

 

[chilango]

Do you know something about David Cameron you should tell us?

I do.

He fucked a dead pig in the mouth.

 

[Pickman's model]

I do.

He fucked a dead pig in the mouth.

It was treelover's description of him as her which raised my eyebrow

 

[2hats]

iirc they are building a simlar one in France and the steel on the core casing was found to be so flawed they had to recast, which lead to doubts about Hinkley

The French (EDF) are building a nuclear reactor (EPR design) at Flamanville. The steel used for the pressure vessel (and several others they are building/are due to build, including that for Hinkley Point) has been found to be sub-standard and thus not suitable for use in that role (too much carbon so too weak).

The steel (for each of the pressure vessels) was forged at Le Creusot, in France, by a French company, several years ago. Each has been identified as faulty during the construction process. That might be considered catastrophic for each project concerned but the steel vessels themselves haven't failed catastrophically.

So - in summary - not Chinese steel and no catastrophic failure. Are the accompanying 'facts' in the rest of the piece equally well researched?

 

[Dogsauce]

So - in summary - not Chinese steel and no catastrophic failure. Are the accompanying 'facts' in the rest of the piece equally well researched?

The stuff about trains and Swindon is bollocks, or at least not relevant to a debate about the EU - it was closed down in the 80s by BR due to the railways being deliberately run down by Thatcher. Fuck all to do with the EU. Similarly the public utilities being flogged off abroad - often to state-owned organisations.

 

[Coolfonz]

M


Maybe if the left had done more when the crash happened there wouldn't have been this turn, one anti-austerity demo every other year, etc, if indeed it is a turn, and challenging open borders is not right wing.

"Open borders"? Seriously?

You have an opinion on `open borders`. But do you have an opinion on the financial crisis? What it did to wages? What it did to employment in the EU, the UK? What it to working people all over the EU? What did it do to people movements? What about internally in the UK? Let alone in Europe. `Open borders`, jesus christ. Depressing.

 

[William of Walworth]

Suzanne Moore could do a lot better job of criticising London-Labour elitism if her points were fact based, rather than wildly exaggerated cliche-based hyperbole. It's not like all her points are completely wrong, but posing as an anti-metropolitan-elitist crusader is about as convincing as Boris Johnson trying it. Populist bollocks.

 

[Coolfonz]

Yet you follow David Cameron's bremain

And you follow whose Brexit? Really a depressing series of arguments, on here, and in general.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Edit: Ach, not worth it.

 

[mather]

Suzanne Moore could do a lot better job of criticising London-Labour elitism if her points were fact based, rather than wildly exaggerated cliche-based hyperbole. It's not like all her points are completely wrong, but posing as an anti-metropolitan-elitist crusader is about as convincing as Boris Johnson trying it. Populist bollocks.

This is a rather odd criticism. Not all arguments need to be one hundred percent fact based (though some do obviously) and this especially true on this issue. The issue of Labour's metropolitan elitism is one of perception rooted in fact, the fact that Labour has long ago abandoned working class people and communities as they now prefer to chase after the middle class liberal vote instead. Unless you have been living under a rock for the last few decades hardly anyone can argue that Labour has big problems with how it is perceived by many working class voters, not that I have any sympathy for Labour as this is a problem entirely of their own making and they only have themselves to blame for that.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

And you follow whose Brexit?

conversely, it's quite amusing to point out to right wing brexit supporters that they are in agreement with arthur scargill / dennis skinner / george galloway

 

[Thisiswhoiamnow]

Thing that disturbs me more than anything is the general consensus that no one has a fucking clue what would happen after 'Brexit' fuck me I am fed up of hearing that ridiculous nonsense. Also that it appears to have no impact on those voting for it. I hate being on the same side as David Cameron for anything but really,

 

[DotCommunist]

Thing that disturbs me more than anything is the general consensus that no one has a fucking clue what would happen after 'Brexit' fuck me I am fed up of hearing that ridiculous nonsense. Also that it appears to have no impact on those voting for it. I hate being on the same side as David Cameron for anything but really,

the problem with the devil you know is that he's still the devil

 

[Coolfonz]

Indeed. There are many things wrong with the left and many of the assumptions that they hold, one of them being the view that soft-left middle class types and liberals are in any way our allies or that they are somehow the 'nicer' and 'more progressive' faction of the establishment and capital. Unfortunately we live in an era where it is politically fashionable to debate any issue other than class and economic power relations. Many on the left have fallen for this unfortunate development as they now waste their time and resources on non-issues and distractions like identity politics and the like.

...and pretending they will `disrupt capital` by leaving the EU . Yeah, last time capital was disrupted - by itself - in 2008/09 it worked out very bad for capital and really well for working people.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm a cautious remainer but its becoming clear that brexit for many poor working class people is a big FU to the comfortably off and a cry for help, sneering at them like many of the liberal left have done is counterproductive.

Yeh it's always the left in the wrong for you isn't it, whether liberal or otherwise

 

[bi0boy]

Thing that disturbs me more than anything is the general consensus that no one has a fucking clue what would happen after 'Brexit' fuck me I am fed up of hearing that ridiculous nonsense. Also that it appears to have no impact on those voting for it. I hate being on the same side as David Cameron for anything but really,

Get one of these ready for 25th June

 

[mauvais]

More fake logos then. Nice.

 

[William of Walworth]

This is a rather odd criticism. Not all arguments need to be one hundred percent fact based (though some do obviously) and this especially true on this issue. The issue of Labour's metropolitan elitism is one of perception rooted in fact, the fact that Labour has long ago abandoned working class people and communities as they now prefer to chase after the middle class liberal vote instead. Unless you have been living under a rock for the last few decades hardly anyone can argue that Labour has big problems with how it is perceived by many working class voters, not that I have any sympathy for Labour as this is a problem entirely of their own making and they only have themselves to blame for that.

I actually agree with most of what you're saying about Labour. It's just that I found some parts the Moore piece, and the way she wrote it, idiotic in several ways that sI haven't got time to go into now. (very busy day today, football and Glasto-preparation).

Just an opinion like -- she's written good articles in the past (eg the Hillsborough one) but I plain didn't like the way that one was written.

 

[newbie]

I suspect that the liberals and their fellow travellers have used this referendum as an opportunity to come out into the open with what I knew all along, that when the chips are down liberals will always side with the establishment and capital, especially its most dominant and globally minded factions.

There are many things wrong with the left and many of the assumptions that they hold, one of them being the view that soft-left middle class types and liberals are in any way our allies or that they are somehow the 'nicer' and 'more progressive' faction of the establishment and capital. Unfortunately we live in an era where it is politically fashionable to debate any issue other than class and economic power relations. Many on the left have fallen for this unfortunate development as they now waste their time and resources on non-issues and distractions like identity politics and the like.

my dilemma in a nutshell.

Head or heart?

Brexit has not won any of the arguments, here, in the mainstream, elsewhere, in my head. Hollow positions that rely on Wishful Thinking, sticking up two fingers and not much else. And a campaign dominated by virulently right wing xenophobes, incompetent pillocks and free market evangelists. Not here, thankyou all for the U75 island of relative sanity. But out there in the communities, the constituencies and top end politics they're the ones poised and organised to build the future they dream about. It's not what's dreamed about on here and it's not what I want.

TBH my heart isn't as pure as I wish it was. I've never endorsed the status quo and the thought of voting with the establishment makes me feel sick. I have two fingers too, I want their power broken not bolstered. I recognise there is just the possibility that Brexit might lead to a resurgence in class struggle during a 'disruption to capital'. GOK how, there's nothing visible to give any hope. But I can't, in good conscience, vote for what my head insists will make millions of lives objectively worse than staying in, for years to come. I just can't. It's not a binary choice, but if push comes to shove I'd rather millions of people didn't have to go through intense class struggle fighting back against crap conditions I'd deliberately voted to bring about. Or, more likely, sullen atomised acceptance of ever crapper conditions I'd deliberately voted to bring about.

The ballot is on my desk staring at me. i have to fill it in and post it today. I've never been this conflicted before.