Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[butchersapron]

me?

I doubt it'll just be me losing out if that mob end up in charge and negotiating our exit from the EU. I somehow doubt that the left exit brigade will be getting much of a look in on the negotiations or forming the government afterwards, they'll just get to watch from the sidelines as all those pesky EU regulations get binned.

They're a mob.

No principles, just hell bent on violence. AGAINST YOU. THEY'RE COMING!!!!!

Pathetic stuff

 

[Pickman's model]

obviously they are, but the leave campaign have excluded them from their pie in the sky crap about points based systems and quotas, so I wasn't making the point about Ireland either.

But no one knows what will happen after 23 June and here you are suggesting again the fragrant boris will be bossing things

 

[Flanflinger]

We're all going to lose.

One more goal for France and I win a tenner.

 

[Pickman's model]

One more goal for France and I win a tenner.

And two more goals?

 

[Flanflinger]

And two more goals?

I lose a quid.

 

[gosub]

Leave will be a fucking disaster for science funding in the UK. They'll fill the gap with even bigger fees and we're headed for the american system. the shits.

Norway is in the EUropean science group.

 

[Flanflinger]

Wish I had put more money on leave now

Average odds on leaving are about 9/4 right now.

 

[free spirit]

Note the slip between the stay vote losing the referendum - your post being an example of why they will lose - and that meaning people that you say that you politically oppose coming to power. A horrible revealing slip -given that a) they're already in power and b) that you've established no logical connection between the vote and this happening. You're just common sensing - again.

could you and pickmans model have a conflab to decide if those running the leave campaign are in power / going to be in power afterwards or not please.

 

[butchersapron]

could you and pickmans model have a conflab to decide if those running the leave campaign are in power / going to be in power afterwards or not please.

No need - you've already decided. And used that to ignore all points put to you.

 

[pocketscience]

could you and pickmans model have a conflab to decide if those running the leave campaign are in power / going to be in power afterwards or not please.

One thing at a time. There's a referendum with a very simple question. Focus on that first & forget campaigns

 

[free spirit]

But no one knows what will happen after 23 June and here you are suggesting again the fragrant boris will be bossing things

I was clearly quoting and arguing against the campaign message coming from the leave campaign.

fuck it though, there's obviously no chance of a reasoned debate here.

 

[pocketscience]

free spirit - are you down with the UK ditching sterling and signing up to the Euro?

 

[J Ed]

One more goal for France and I win a tenner.

Congrats!

 

[stethoscope]

fuck it though, there's obviously no chance of a reasoned debate here.

Thing is mate, that's precisely how I feel though about parts of the left having gone into some sort of panic about how everything is going to turn to shit come a leave (but I expect it'll be a lot more drawn out and nuanced than that) and so therefore throwing support into remain - and with some sort of amnesia happening about EU neoliberalism and what its already doing to workers rights, austerity, opening up markets/industries to capital, etc.

If that energy might have been expended on organising on a left exit basis instead.

 

[Flanflinger]

One more goal for France and I win a tenner.

Get in there. Half of tomorrow nights curry paid for if no more goals.

 

[Pickman's model]

could you and pickmans model have a conflab to decide if those running the leave campaign are in power / going to be in power afterwards or not please.

Being as dc likely to come under a fair degree of pressure to resign and someone like bj likely to replace him, who would you expect to see in number 10 this time next year, bj or or some bremain loser?

 

[Duncan2]

One thing at a time. There's a referendum with a very simple question. Focus on that first & forget campaigns

One of the many aspects of all this that I find difficult is the fact that it clearly isn't a simple question? In the unlikely event of a Leave vote who then gets to be the final arbiter of what the people have voted for.Its so far from being obvious you could almost argue its an unfair question to pse.So imprecise/vague as to be meaningless.

 

[free spirit]

If that energy might have been expended on organising on a left exit basis instead.

That to me would be even more futile an effort than the effort to join up with rising left wing forces elsewhere in Europe to attempt to reform and improve the EU.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

In the unlikely event of a Leave vote who then gets to be the final arbiter of what the people have voted for

Hmm.

In theory, the British people (or the English people and those of whichever other bits of the UK that don't decide to fuck off) will exercise their democratic duty to elect a government which will do the best thing for the country.

In practice, whoever the leader of the conservative party is after the dust settles, so long as s/he doesn't lose a confidence vote, can do the best thing for his / her chums until 2020.

I'm still no nearer knowing what the heck to vote than I was when this thread started.

Meh.

 

[butchersapron]

That to me would be even more futile an effort than the effort to join up with rising left wing forces elsewhere in Europe to attempt to reform and improve the EU.

Yet your call is to do the same but with defeated or non-existing left-wing forces. If they don't exist or are defeated then what are you demanding people have imposed on them?

You have no problem imagining a world outside the eu with no left - what about the reality of the eu with no left? No left possible. All routes legally closed down. Written into individual states constitutions.

 

[free spirit]

Being as dc likely to come under a fair degree of pressure to resign and someone like bj likely to replace him, who would you expect to see in number 10 this time next year, bj or or some bremain loser?

in the event of a vote to leave I'd expect cameron would resign or be forced out. Not so sure about who would end up in power after that, could be one of the exit tories, or the government could fall entirely and end up with a snap election. In that case I suspect UKIP would be on a roll after the referendum and we could end up with a Tory / UKIP coalition, but fuck knows really. I doubt it will just be business as usual though, and I doubt it would be someone from the bremain camp in the event of a vote to leave.

 

[Pickman's model]

in the event of a vote to leave I'd expect cameron would resign or be forced out. Not so sure about who would end up in power after that, could be one of the exit tories, or the government could fall entirely and end up with a snap election. In that case I suspect UKIP would be on a roll after the referendum and we could end up with a Tory / UKIP coalition, but fuck knows really. I doubt it will just be business as usual though, and I doubt it would be someone from the bremain camp in the event of a vote to leave.

A simple I agree would have done

 

[coley]

It was aimed at the undecided who might read this thread.

Does such a creature exist? On this particular thread anyway

 

[free spirit]

free spirit - are you down with the UK ditching sterling and signing up to the Euro?

no.

To me one of the main arguments for us staying in the EU is that we're specifically protected from the impacts of the stability and growth pact, and the Euro. There are no penalties that can be applied to us for breaching those nominal debt targets, and we can't be held to ransom by the ECB because we can print our own money if needed to prop up the banks / economy / whatever. So we can decide by ourselves to ditch austerity and there's fuck all the EU can do about it, the UK government is implementing austerity voluntarily not because the EU are forcing it to do it.

Basically what happened to Greece can't be forced on us by the EU, it's impossible with the current set up, so the comparisons with Greece that many people on the left have made are false comparisons.

We can stay and fight alongside with Greece, Spain and other countries if we* and they swing to the left without any fear of what happened to Greece happening to us. They have a far higher chances of ending up forming a minority bloc in the European Council with a blocking percentage of the EU population with us than without us because we are one of the 4 countries with the highest population levels.

Also in Europe at least the parliament is elected by PR, so it's far more likely to end up with Socialist / Green / Left blocs having a role in a left / progressive coalition than would have been the case in the UK - at least prior to Corbyn seemingly managing to retake the Labour party for the left. If the non labour left in the UK got it's act together electorally then it has a far higher chance of getting representation via European PR elections than it does via first past the post elections to the UK parliament.

* obviously all this would depend on Corbyn ending up in power in the UK rather than another neoliberal prick, but that's the best case scenario I can envisage, and it seems more likely than the left rising to power in the UK in the event of a vote to leave, with right wing tories and UKIP in the ascendancy.

 

[pocketscience]

yeah fuck it, let's just give a load if right wing anti-immigrant tories a free pass to spout their anti-immigration bollocks unchallenged because your crystal ball says they'll not be in charge if they win the referendum.

You do realise that the impacts of the referendum go way beyond the current shower of shit that are in parliament

One of the many aspects of all this that I find difficult is the fact that it clearly isn't a simple question? In the unlikely event of a Leave vote who then gets to be the final arbiter of what the people have voted for.Its so far from being obvious you could almost argue its an unfair question to pse.So imprecise/vague as to be meaningless.

It's really simple. You're making it way more complicated for yoyrself than it needs to be. Eu: yes or no? Not who decides what afterwards. In the case of a brexit vote, the segregation process will exceed at least the next parlimentary election anyway.

 

[free spirit]

A simple I agree would have done

your post read like a question to me, but whatever.

 

[coley]

closed borders make the world a much better place to live in.....

Remind me? who's building Barbed wire fences along its borders and giving £billions and preferential treatment to Turkey to act as its jailer?

 

[free spirit]

You do realise that the impacts of the referendum go way beyond the current shower of shit that are in parliament

It's reallt simple. You're making it way more complicated for yoyrself than it needs to be. Eu: yes or no? Not who decides what afterwards. In the case of a brexit vote, the segregation process will exceed at least the next parlimentary election anyway.

will it? There's a 2 year timeline for countries wanting to leave unless they can get agreement from all other countries to let the process drag on longer. Sorting out the mess afterwards will take a lot longer, but the process of leaving could well be completed in this parliament.

 

[free spirit]

Remind me? who's building Barbed wire fences along its borders and giving £billions and preferential treatment to Turkey to act as its jailer?

not something I agree with either, but tbf the EU's initial reaction was to attempt to get all EU countries to take a fair share of the refugees coming into the EU, something that the UK was a pretty vocal opponent of unfortunately.

 

[butchersapron]

Remind me? who's building Barbed wire fences along its borders and giving £billions and preferential treatment to Turkey to act as its jailer?

Remind me too, what is fortress europe, where it came from and why people like you (FS) have opposed it.