The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[littlebabyjesus]

People give as well as they get around here, you know that.

You're not helping at all, tbf.

I'm not helping in the sense that kabbes is continuing to be a prick. But I piped up to say that not everyone reading this thread thought it was just jovial banter. Sometimes that does help when you're being sniped at.

 

[Maggot]

Shall we move on to your rabid, and exclusionary nationalism? I wonder if you would describe people from Pakistan, India, the Caribbean, or Europe who had moved to, and settled in,Wales in such a way - no, of course not, they would be Welsh, because they live in Wales. How odd then that you would single out another nationality for apparent crimes - one might almost believe you harboured some loathing prejudice against people based purely on where they were born and their accent...

You edited out the laughing emoji, which shows that Editor's dig at the English in Wales was not entirely serious.

 

[editor]

Well, having had a look at the issue and read some of the comments of Rhun ap Iorwerth my suggestion for the short term would be to go hard on tourism as lockdown eases. Plenty of scope for attracting domestic tourists and hosting events. Secondly I'd acknowledge that its popularity as a retirement destination has affected local GDP figures, but I'd capitalise on that and aim to attract higher net worth retirees, for example by leveraging the entire-coast AONB (red squirrels! auks!).

There's a big flaw in that argument though: public transport, unless you want encourage more car driving.

Despite years of lobbying, only the west coast line is open, and that's mainly for ferry traffic. Anglesey has a very poor infrastructure and would need substantial investment to turn it into an attractive and practical tourist destination. I'd love it if it happened of course, but historically it's been a very low priority and even if the funds were available, it would take years.

 

[platinumsage]

There's a big flaw in that argument though: public transport, unless you want encourage more car driving.

Despite years of lobbying, only the west coast line is open, and that's mainly for ferry traffic. Anglesey has a very poor infrastructure and would need substantial investment to turn it into an attractive and practical tourist destination. I'd love it if it happened of course, but historically it's been a very low priority and even if the funds were available, it would take years.

View attachment 255377

More car traffic wouldn’t hurt surely, especially if it supports a retirement and tourist economy, and if the previous lorry traffic was deemed acceptable to support the port jobs.

Anyway I’ve yet to hear a better plan than mine from any Welsh politicians, although perhaps I missed something. I checked out the “Prosperity for All” Economic Action Plan from the Welsh Government but it didn’t mention Anglesey even once.

 

[kabbes]

There is a wider and historically constant issue of what you do to help areas that don't have a lot of local employment generally. Funny enough, this past year could precipitate some heavy transformation of those areas. Now that working from home has become normalised, I expect a trend of people increasingly looking to do this from further and further afield. It wouldn't surprise me to see the spectre of gentrification impacting areas like Anglesey in the future.

 

[Spymaster]

More car traffic wouldn’t hurt surely, especially if it supports a retirement and tourist economy, and if the previous lorry traffic was deemed acceptable to support the port jobs.

Absolutely. If they've just got rid of half a million, massive, shit-spewing oil-burners, they can happily handle a bunch of cars. Great trade-off.

 

[kebabking]

You edited out the laughing emoji, which shows that Editor's dig at the English in Wales was not entirely serious.

Other way round - I didn't edit it out, he edited it in...

 

[platinumsage]

There is a wider and historically constant issue of what you do to help areas that don't have a lot of local employment generally. Funny enough, this past year could precipitate some heavy transformation of those areas. Now that working from home has become normalised, I expect a trend of people increasingly looking to do this from further and further afield. It wouldn't surprise me to see the spectre of gentrification impacting areas like Anglesey in the future.

Already started: Second homes protesters march on Anglesey over 'housing crisis' - recap

 

[Pickman's model]

More car traffic wouldn’t hurt surely, especially if it supports a retirement and tourist economy, and if the previous lorry traffic was deemed acceptable to support the port jobs.

Anyway I’ve yet to hear a better plan than mine from any Welsh politicians, although perhaps I missed something. I checked out the “Prosperity for All” Economic Action Plan from the Welsh Government but it didn’t mention Anglesey even once.

Did this plan mention abertillery, borth or hawarden?

 

[BobDavis]

I was thinking of the end of the perverse British supply of weapons to countries like Saudi Arabia. The end of overweening British posturing on the international stage and the humanitarian interventions like the one which prompted the massacres in Kosovo or toppled Gaddafi. Not so important perhaps as the rate of the pound and gdp which you prize so highly. but I stand by my view that the end of the United Kingdom with more pacific polities replacing it would be welcomed by much of the rest of the world. The real end of empire. The end of punching above our weight and the myth of the special relationship. The end of the poisonous monarchy. And I hope the beginning of new, respectful, and positive relationships between the peoples of these islands and their neighbours.

Anyway you seem to be missing that the six counties will be joining the twenty-six at some point. The demography points that way, it is irreversible although the sort of all Ireland state remains to be seen. Brexit is boosting the chances of Scottish independence and real rumblings of Welsh independence are being heard. The UK is unraveling before our eyes.

Yes I would agree we should take a high moral stance in regard of human rights abuses in Saudi & China to name a couple of the main culprits. It is difficult to stop trading with China when even our means of posting on urban is made there though. As for large scale military interventions in other countries I think probably the days of that have passed. I don’t think the British public would be behind it nowadays.

Personally I have always found it odd that NI exists at all. It has always seemed to me that the island of Ireland should exist as one entity. That is how I have always viewed it as somebody who has no Irish connections ?

As I understand it the terms of the GFA state that a border poll can be held when polls look like it can be won which seems fair enough to me. Let the people of NI decide. As for Scotland who knows ? I would be ok with another Indy ref. Again let the people decide.

I was absolutely on board with a second brexit ref. I always thought once a deal had been done there should have been a vote on it. However once our odd system of democracy delivered a huge Tory majority on about 44% of the popular vote I knew it was time to move on.

Everybody’s circumstances are different & many have had their lives anything from seriously inconvenienced to totally wrecked by brexit but for me not much has changed. My only interaction now with the EU is camping trips to France in the summer which I‘m sure I can continue once the Covid thing is done. So I am lucky. Despite being quite upset initially by the brexit vote I am able to move on so I have.

I think wishing bad things to happen to the country we live in is counter productive though. Better to wish bad things to happen to the present government & hope for a better one after next general election.

 

[editor]

More car traffic wouldn’t hurt surely, especially if it supports a retirement and tourist economy, and if the previous lorry traffic was deemed acceptable to support the port jobs.

Anyway I’ve yet to hear a better plan than mine from any Welsh politicians, although perhaps I missed something. I checked out the “Prosperity for All” Economic Action Plan from the Welsh Government but it didn’t mention Anglesey even once.

But you can't just declare somewhere to be a tourist destination without the infrastructure to make it happen. That means good rail links, hotels, restaurants, shops, attractions and things to do and see. And Anglesey isn't exactly packed full of all those kind of amenities.

And I'm not sure why anyone would want to retire to such a deprived rural area with poor transport and poor facilities in an out of the way place in the UK.

 

[editor]

Already started: Second homes protesters march on Anglesey over 'housing crisis' - recap

The negative impact on the local services by rarely used second homes is well documented. I don't blame the local community fighting about them.

Second homes: Communities left 'defenceless' by market forces, councillor says

Councillors call for more government action to stop families being "forced to leave".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[platinumsage]

Did this plan mention abertillery, borth or hawarden?

They're not the poorest part of Britain set to lose even more jobs thanks to Brexit though are they?

 

[editor]

It wouldn't surprise me to see the spectre of gentrification impacting areas like Anglesey in the future.

You actually think Anglesey is going to gentrify any time soon?

 

[two sheds]

And I'm not sure why anyone would want to retire to such a deprived rural area with poor transport and poor facilities in an out of the way place in the UK.

Cornwall's nice

 

[platinumsage]

.

 

[editor]

Just to give some context to how rural and sparsely populated Anglesey is, here's their 8 biggest towns, two of which count as villages, they're so small.

1	Holyhead	11,431
2	Llangefni	5,116
3	Amlwch	3,789
4	Llanfair Mathafarn Eithaf	3,382
5	Menai Bridge	3,376
6	Llanfairpwllgwyngyll	3,107
7	Valley	2,361 [1]
8	Beaumaris	1,938 [2]

 

[kabbes]

You actually think Anglesey is going to gentrify any time soon?

People have said that about lots of run down areas in the past. But Anglesey has some beautiful landscape, unique wildlife and cheap property. If you can work from home full time, you may well prefer to do so from an ex-farmhouse in Anglesey rather than a two-bed flat in an increasingly depressing part of London. And as particular groups start to do it, this will bring the kind of retail and services that these groups enjoy, which will encourage others from the same cohort to do the same -- the classic gentrification spiral. I don't know that it will be Anglesey that this will happen to (of course), but I can be pretty certain that we'll see it in areas around Britain that were previously considered to be basically employment black spots.

 

[platinumsage]

And I'm not sure why anyone would want to retire to such a deprived rural area with poor transport and poor facilities in an out of the way place in the UK.

Well they do:

Unlike coastal honeypots like Rhosneigr on Anglesey and Abersoch in Gwynedd, which attract more affluent homebuyers, Benllech was a magnet for recent retirees, he said. Local services in the village were good, with shops, cafes and a new medical centre. Crucially, said Mr Rowlands, there was also a large stock of bungalows. “That’s what people want when they retire,” he said. “Many of them have spent a lifetime of holidays on Anglesey and have long-held ambitions of retiring to the island. They associate Anglesey with happy times, and Benllech has good facilities for the retirement market.”

 

[Pickman's model]

They're not the poorest part of Britain set to lose even more jobs thanks to Brexit though are they?

what places does the plan mention then - and you didn't make it clear this was a Britain-wide plan. I thought it dealt solely with Wales

 

[kebabking]

...And I'm not sure why anyone would want to retire to such a deprived rural area with poor transport and poor facilities in an out of the way place in the UK.

Really?

You don't understand why people would like to live in an achingly beautiful place that is full of history and archaeology, with relatively low housing prices?

Of course, they could go to Brixton instead, with its lively nightlife of being robbed, stabbed or shot, paying half a million quid for some dingy flat, and choking to death on diesel fumes. I mean it's not an easy choose to make....

I should have thought of all those property hunting programs that feature retired/semi-retired people: Escape to the City, City or City, Crack dens for the over-80's.... Silly me.

 

[platinumsage]

what places does the plan mention then - and you didn't make it clear this was a Britain-wide plan. I thought it dealt solely with Wales

It did deal soley with Wales, but didn’t mention what is supposedly the poorest region not only in Wales but in the whole of Britain. Im sure there are lots of poor places in Wales which aren’t so poor as to be the pooorest place in Britain, and if it didn’t mention those either then that just highlights how inadequate it is, especially for Anglesey.

 

[editor]

People have said that about lots of run down areas in the past. But Anglesey has some beautiful landscape, unique wildlife and cheap property. If you can work from home full time, you may well prefer to do so from an ex-farmhouse in Anglesey rather than a two-bed flat in an increasingly depressing part of London. And as particular groups start to do it, this will bring the kind of retail and services that these groups enjoy, which will encourage others from the same cohort to do the same -- the classic gentrification spiral. I don't know that it will be Anglesey that this will happen to (of course), but I can be pretty certain that we'll see it in areas around Britain that were previously considered to be basically employment black spots.

It's extremely rare for isolated, predominantly rural areas with a traditional farming background, small populations, poor transport links and poor infrastructure to be gentrified.

In fact, I can't think of a single instance in the UK. How about you?

 

[editor]

Really?

You don't understand why people would like to live in an achingly beautiful place that is full of history and archaeology, with relatively low housing prices?

Simple question: Why haven't they all moved there already then? Why is the area so achingly poor?

Of course, they could go to Brixton instead, with its lively nightlife of being robbed, stabbed or shot, paying half a million quid for some dingy flat, and choking to death on diesel fumes. I mean it's not an easy choose to make....

I've absolutely no idea why you're dredging up this negative, stereotypical view of Brixton into this discussion. Literally none at all. No one has suggested that Brixton would be a suitable retirement home.

Oh wait. It's because I live there so it's yet more of the completely off topic personal shit.

 

[kabbes]

It's extremely rare for isolated, predominantly rural areas with a traditional farming background, small populations, poor transport links and poor infrastructure to be gentrified.

In fact, I can't think of a single instance in the UK. How about you?

There is a wider and historically constant issue of what you do to help areas that don't have a lot of local employment generally. Funny enough, this past year could precipitate some heavy transformation of those areas. Now that working from home has become normalised, I expect a trend of people increasingly looking to do this from further and further afield. It wouldn't surprise me to see the spectre of gentrification impacting areas like Anglesey in the future.

 

[kebabking]

North Yorkshire, Lake District, Snowdonia, Cotswolds - no, I can't think of any poor, very rural, isolated areas with poor public infrastructure being gentrified at all....

 

[editor]

North Yorkshire, Lake District, Snowdonia, Cotswolds - no, I can't think of any poor, very rural, isolated areas with poor public infrastructure being gentrified at all....

It appears that you don't actually know what gentrification is:

Gentrification is the "process whereby the character of a poor urban area is changed by wealthier people moving in, improving housing, and attracting new businesses, often displacing current inhabitants in the process."

 

[kebabking]

It appears that you don't actually know what gentrification is:

Gentrification is the "process whereby the character of a poor urban area is changed by wealthier people moving in, improving housing, and attracting new businesses, often displacing current inhabitants in the process."

This suggests that you've never been to any of these places - how much is a 3 bed in Betws-y-Coed these days?

 

[Pickman's model]

This suggests that you've never been to any of these places - how much is a 3 bed in Betws-y-Coed these days?

Dunno about 3 bed but very tempted by a four bed for £210k

 

[editor]

This suggests that you've never been to any of these places - how much is a 3 bed in Betws-y-Coed these days?

That's not gentrification. Do you really not understand what the word means?

Mind you, I could bag a 2 bedroom detached house for £195k there and I could find shitloads cheaper all over Snowdonia, like a 3 bedroom house for £115k in Blaenau Ffestiniog or a £60k end of terrace in Conwy. Are these 'gentrified' prices to you?

Now please read this before posting up any more nonsense about 'gentrification':

In 1964, Ruth Glass coined the term ‘gentrification’ to describe the changes that were occurring in many urban areas in London at the time, during which ordinary run-down mews and terraced housing were being transformed into housing for the rich.

Normally masked by the less accurate but slightly more palatable terms ‘urbanisation’ and ‘regeneration’, gentrification actually describes a brutal and often violent process – the displacement of local working-class people and the destruction of the communities that bind them together, irrevocably altering the social character of the place in question.

Gentrification describes a brutal and often violent process – Jade MacRury - Geographical Magazine

‘Regeneration’ more often than not means ‘gentrification’, says Jade MacRury In 1964, Ruth Glass coined the term ‘gentrification’ to describe the chan...

geographical.co.uk

.