The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[brogdale]

To the UK on that you could add most other countries in the rest of the world. How many ordinary people will be bothered by this though ?

You could, but then it wouldn't be a diagram showing the UK's relationship to the European Union, its monetary union, its custom union, trade areas or wider FoM zones.

The diagram posted by editor seems to have ruffled some feathers!

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

How are San Marino and Andorra not in the Schengen Zone? They are not part of it but have no borders with it either, weird.

 

[brogdale]

How are San Marino and Andorra not in the Schengen Zone?

Though not formally so, I believe they have open borders with the surpratstate in practice.

 

[Flavour]

Neither Andorra nor San Marino has any form of border control. They are both tiny towns.

 

[brogdale]

Neither Andorra nor San Marino has any form of border control. They are both tiny towns.

From Wiki

Andorra is landlocked and does not have an airport or seaport, but there are several heliports. Visitors to the country can only gain access by road or helicopter through Schengen members France or Spain. Andorra maintains border controls with both France and Spain. There are border controls in the other direction also, but these are more focused on customs control (Andorra has considerably lower taxes than its neighbours, with for example a standard VAT rate of just 4.5%). Andorra does not have any visa requirements. Citizens of EU countries need either a national identity card or passport to enter Andorra, while anyone else requires a passport or equivalent. Schengen visas are accepted,but those travellers who need a visa to enter the Schengen Area need a multiple-entry visa to visit Andorra, because entering Andorra means leaving the Schengen Area, and reentering France or Spain is considered a new entry into the Schengen Area. Andorran citizens do not receive a passport stamp when they enter and leave the Schengen Area.

As of 2015, Andorra, Monaco and San Marino were negotiating an Association Agreement with the EU. Andorra's ambassador to Spain, Jaume Gaytán, has said that he hopes that the agreement will include provisions to make the states associate members of the Schengen Agreement.

Andorra customs post with Spain:

 

[BobDavis]

its been said on this thread in the last week it would be impossible for the UK to be in the EU customs union without also subscribing to freedom of movement - that's not true, we could've been in the Turkey zone on that diagram. Customs Union seemed a minimum.

Do some reading & you will see that Turkey is in a customs union with EU but not in the single market. Norway is in single market but not customs union. Trade is not frictionless for either of the 2 countries. There are long queues of trucks at the Turkey EU border. EU trucks driving from Sweden into Norway take on average 20mins to do paperwork at border but not an issue as traffic volumes are low.

Point is both these countries have arrangements that suit them but UK is not those countries. For the UK only thing that would allow frictionless trade & everything else as it was before is for the UK to retain membership of both single market & customs union ie the 4 freedoms. Freedom of movement of goods, of finance, of services & labour. From a brexit ideological pov this is worse than EU membership. From the EU ideological pov the 4 freedoms are indivisible.

 

[brogdale]

Do some reading & you will see that Turkey is in a customs union with EU but not in the single market. Norway is in single market but not customs union. Trade is not frictionless for either of the 2 countries. There are long queues of trucks at the Turkey EU border. EU trucks driving from Sweden into Norway take on average 20mins to do paperwork at border but not an issue as traffic volumes are low.

Point is both these countries have arrangements that suit them but UK is not those countries. For the UK only thing that would allow frictionless trade & everything else as it was before is for the UK to retain membership of both single market & customs union ie the 4 freedoms. Of trade, of finance, of services & labour. From a brexit ideological pov this is worse than EU membership. From the EU ideological pov the 4 freedoms are indivisible.

Or, as they used to say...Brexit means Brexit.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To the UK on that you could add most other countries in the rest of the world. How many ordinary people will be bothered by this though ? The general attitude now seems to be we are where we are just get on with it. Brexit is done. For most UK people their only connection with life outside UK is holidays & once the Covid thing is over then holidays in Spain & so on will be back on. It might take another 10mins at the airport.

Define 'ordinary' in this context.

Quite a bit of the rhetoric on here seems to focus on the supposedly limited horizons and aspirations of a bunch of other people.

It's pretty patronising. In other contexts it might be called class prejudice.

 

[Cerv]

I suppose if they'd included things like NATO, G8 and UN security council it would have been too hard to draw.

quite hard. you'd need to go 3D to include time. the G8 hasn't existed since 2014

 

[ska invita]

Do some reading & you will see that Turkey is in a customs union with EU but not in the single market. Norway is in single market but not customs union. Trade is not frictionless for either of the 2 countries. There are long queues of trucks at the Turkey EU border. EU trucks driving from Sweden into Norway take on average 20mins to do paperwork at border but not an issue as traffic volumes are low.

Point is both these countries have arrangements that suit them but UK is not those countries. For the UK only thing that would allow frictionless trade & everything else as it was before is for the UK to retain membership of both single market & customs union ie the 4 freedoms. Freedom of movement of goods, of finance, of services & labour. From a brexit ideological pov this is worse than EU membership. From the EU ideological pov the 4 freedoms are indivisible.

thanks ive done some reading
if we take no freedom of movement as a red line (which i dont personally), then a form of arrangement that Turkey has would be preferable to what we have now. The nature of that customs union wouldve been open to negotiation - it neednt mirror Turkey exactly, but even what Turkey has is better than where we are now.

The reason we dont have it is our Buckaneer rulers still dream of a new global empire and deregulation with it - "new deals" must be struck.

 

[Flavour]

From Wiki

Interesting. But that can in practice be avoided if you take the unpaved road via Tor-Norìs-Alins (bit of a mission, but if someone really wanted to enter Andorra without the 1 in a billion chance that they bother stopping you to check your documents, which I can assure you almost NEVER happens unless your car doesn't have a Euro numberplate or something.... they could)

 

[mojo pixy]

Quite a bit of the rhetoric on here seems to focus on the supposedly limited horizons and aspirations of a bunch of other people.

It's pretty patronising. In other contexts it might be called class prejudice.

It might be class prejudice from someone sneering at it as ''patronising'' but for people who actually lived it it's just .. lived experience.

Stop gaslighting, it's ugly and pointless.

 

[BobDavis]

thanks ive done some reading
if we take no freedom of movement as a red line (which i dont personally), then a form of arrangement that Turkey has would be preferable to what we have now. The nature of that customs union wouldve been open to negotiation - it neednt mirror Turkey exactly, but even what Turkey has is better than where we are now.

The reason we dont have it is our Buckaneer rulers still dream of a new global empire and deregulation with it - "new deals" must be struck.

They may dream of that but I think that ship has sailed. I think people want better public services & they do not want US food imports or the US buying the NHS. So the Tories are basically fucked & it will be interesting see how they manage the next 3 & a bit years. The voters that gave them their majority want Keynesianism I would have thought ?

 

[ska invita]

They may dream of that but I think that ship has sailed. I think people want better public services & they do not want US food imports or the US buying the NHS. So the Tories are basically fucked & it will be interesting see how they manage the next 3 & a bit years. The voters that gave them their majority want Keynesianism I would have thought ?

Its not sailed, Bexit has only just begun.

We've just applied to be part of this:

UK applies to join huge Pacific free trade area CPTPP

The UK is formally applying to join one of the world’s largest free-trade areas, deepening trade ties with some of the fastest-growing markets in the world

www.gov.uk

Then theres the US deal. Biden has HOPEFULLY crippled the scary NHS sell off Liam Fox had arranged with Trump, though lets see what happens under Biden. If his presidency has made a difference then its just a matter of time till theres another Republican-Tory alignment.

Other deals are going on in the background.

The Tories are basically not fucked. Labour are fucked.

 

[Raheem]

Technically Great Britain

Exactly how good it is remains to be seen.

 

[Flavour]

Exactly how good it is remains to be seen.

It's great as in big, compared to Little Britain (Brittany in France)

 

[The39thStep]

Found this interesting. Clear trajectory post Brexit albeit within the limitations of polling. Obviously, issues like Brexit and the concern about the NHS during covid would have pushed this issue down. On the other hand, there's a couple of issues, like the Channel migrants and the lockdown/close the borders to keep the virus out lobby that I would have thought might have had more of an impact.

 

[BobDavis]

Define 'ordinary' in this context.

Quite a bit of the rhetoric on here seems to focus on the supposedly limited horizons and aspirations of a bunch of other people.

It's pretty patronising. In other contexts it might be called class prejudice.

No I don’t think so. Plenty of people live all their lives in the town where they were born. They get good jobs or start businesses & earn good money or they might be less well off & just get by. They have families, kids & relatives nearby that they love & care about. They enjoy their lives. Some people enjoy holidays in the UK some like to go abroad others are happy to have a week off work & paint their houses. There is nothing wrong with any of that.

Certainly some will sneer at ordinary people living ordinary lives but I have only ever led an ordinary life. I have travelled all around this country & quite a few countries in Europe but mostly behind the wheel of a truck. If I had not been a truck driver I probably would not have travelled anywhere except on holiday. Most people only get 4 weeks holiday pa. There is nothing wrong with the quiet life if that is what you want. I guess even millionaire rock stars live quite ordinary lives most of the time taking their kids to school & so on. They just drive better cars.

 

[Raheem]

It's great as in big, compared to Little Britain (Brittany in France)

I read somewhere once that this is a common misconception, but I can't remember the details.

 

[ska invita]

Found this interesting. Clear trajectory post Brexit albeit within the limitations of polling. Obviously, issues like Brexit and the concern about the NHS during covid would have pushed this issue down. On the other hand, there's a couple of issues, like the Channel migrants and the lockdown/close the borders to keep the virus out lobby that I would have thought might have had more of an impact.

View attachment 255739

would be interesting to map that on a timeline of the use of the word IMMIGRANTS in the UK press

 

[The39thStep]

would be interesting to map that on a timeline of the use of the word IMMIGRANTS in the UK press

Someone said that on Twitter

 

[ska invita]

Someone said that on Twitter

I've seen a similar thing about anti-EU sentiment. It wasn't an issue for people until "the press" made it so. The graph for concern about the EU goes up and up from a starting point of next to non-existent.
Obviously UKIP can take huge credit for that.
Recently was said on this thread The Brexit Campaigns Were Irrelevant - This Is How People Really Felt All Along - nonsense, UKIP has been the most effective political campaigning group, and of course having large sections of the press totally onside helped no end.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Certainly some will sneer at ordinary people living ordinary lives but I have only ever led an ordinary life. I have travelled all around this country & quite a few countries in Europe but mostly behind the wheel of a truck. If I had not been a truck driver I probably would not have travelled anywhere except on holiday.

This is an example of what I mean. 'I'm ordinary, but I'm an exception because of the X, Y, Z particulars of my life.' That's also a bit of a theme. But we all have X, Y, Z particulars in our lives.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've seen a similar thing about anti-EU sentiment. It wasn't an issue for people until "the press" made it so. The graph for concern about the EU goes up and up from a starting point of next to non-existent.
Obviously UKIP can take huge credit for that.
Recently was said on this thread The Brexit Campaigns Were Irrelevant - This Is How People Really Felt All Along - nonsense, UKIP has been the most effective political campaigning group, and of course having large sections of the press totally onside helped no end.

20 years of relentless immigrant-bashing from the Daily Express can't have hurt.

 

[editor]

would be interesting to map that on a timeline of the use of the word IMMIGRANTS in the UK press

Some depressing facts

While Germany (91.0%) and Sweden (75.3%) overwhelmingly used the terms “refugee” or “asylum seeker”, in Spain the most widely (67.1%) used term was “immigrant” and in Britain (54.2%) and Italy (35.8%) the word was “migrant”.

In the EU press, the negative commentary on refugees and migrants usually only consists of a reported sentence or two from a citizen or far-right politician – which is often then challenged within the article by a journalist or another source. In the British right-wing press, however, anti-refugee and migrant themes are continuously reinforced through the angles taken in stories, editorials and comment pieces.

UK press is the most aggressive in reporting on Europe’s ‘migrant’ crisis

Public opinion has been polarised by the way newspapers are covering this story.

theconversation.com

 

[ska invita]

20 years of relentless immigrant-bashing from the Daily Express can't have hurt.

the express, the mail, the telegraph, the sun and the times
anti immigrant and also anti eu
its almost as if this is a right wing political project

 

[discokermit]

so, peoples lived experiences had nothing to do with it? the whole thing just a phantom of the press based on nothing? lol.

 

[ska invita]

so, peoples lived experiences had nothing to do with it? the whole thing just a phantom of the press based on nothing? lol.

no its not a phantom - the press and UKIP raised consciousness of the dangers of the EU and MIGRANTS and the public made their decision once the referendum finally came around

this is what campaigning and media communication is all about, its what countless left organisations try and do to.

in this case its a rightwing establishment campaign though

 

[The39thStep]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

so, peoples lived experiences had nothing to do with it? the whole thing just a phantom of the press based on nothing? lol.

Nobody said that, did they? One of the saddest aspects of this is the way that people's lived experiences were linked by the anti-immigrants to immigration - the lived experiences of struggles to get housing or a job or a pay rise being blamed on immigrants. I think it's naive to pretend this wasn't a significant factor both in the referendum and in Boris Johnson's victory last year. He wasn't just randomly touring the North East of England spouting anti-Pole rhetoric.