The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[editor]

Well it's a 1km queue at Dover and a 3km queue at Calais, at what should be the quietest time it will ever be as noone is travelling. It's not good.

And a 1km queue at Harwich adding another 7 hours to the journey time. The drivers must be well fucked off.

 

[The39thStep]

Agreed.
Although some of us are old enough to remember an anti-EEC Labour left, by the time of the referendum that felt a world away. The only Lexit arguments that I heard were on here and from a few RMT speakers at various things I went to in 2016. I don't think that any Lexit arguments had any traction with the vast majority of Leave voters.

That's true and as you know there's a story for why that anti EEC Labour left virtually disappeared and the TUC and soft left seeking out the EU as the least worst option. Also subsumed into that void at a later date was the stay and reform argument.

 

[Badgers]

Had to call the Gammon TopCat and take him to task

 

[editor]

Both campaigns lied through their teeth. I always wondered though why people thought voters were heavily influenced by the campaigns. I don’t think they were particularly.

I disagree. I'd suggest this big fat lie was a very effective marketing tool which garnered huge amounts of press attention, especially in the right wing rags.

 

[kebabking]

...Also subsumed into that void at a later date was the stay and reform argument.

I think, from conversations I've had, and my own gut feelings, is that the 'stay and reform' thing died with Cameron getting the big finger when he sought to fiddle with the relationship - I think that regardless of you view of what Cameron was asking for, the EU telling one of its big members (snort, fnaar, gurgle) with 1/7th of all economic activity in the bloc, half it's P5 seats on the UNSC, half it's nukes and about 30% of its usable military force, that it could fuck off, said that serious change in any direction was simply not on the cards.

It very clearly signposted that 'the project' was the important thing, and absolutely not the servant of the member states. That turned a lot of people (probably those of soft remain, who saw the relationship in transactional terms) right off.

 

[BobDavis]

Both campaigns lied through their teeth. I always wondered though why people thought voters were heavily influenced by the campaigns. I don’t think they were particularly.

Agree with this. The day Cameron announced the ref was going to be held around where I live & in my local pub it was almost a party atmosphere. “Yeah let’s get out” “fuck the EU” & so on all very good humoured & happy. Nobody I spoke to except me intended to vote remain.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I think, from conversations I've had, and my own gut feelings, is that the 'stay and reform' thing died with Cameron getting the big finger when he sought to fiddle with the relationship - I think that regardless of you view of what Cameron was asking for, the EU telling one of its big members (snort, fnaar, gurgle) with 1/7th of all economic activity in the bloc, half it's P5 seats on the UNSC, half it's nukes and about 30% of its usable military force, that it could fuck off, said that serious change in any direction was simply not on the cards.

It very clearly signposted that 'the project' was the important thing, and absolutely not the servant of the member states. That turned a lot of people (probably those of soft remain, who saw the relationship in transactional terms) right off.

I feel it was that which done for the whole thing, the EU telling the UK that they were its masters, was never going to end well.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I disagree. I'd suggest this big fat lie was a very effective marketing tool which garnered huge amounts of press attention, especially in the right wing rags.

View attachment 255212

I think the sad truth is that Cummings' three-word tabloid headline-style slogans were probably the biggest factor campaign-wise. Take Back Control. Get Brexit Done. Direct, active, imperative, short.

 

[The39thStep]

I feel it was that which done for the whole thing, the EU telling the UK that they were its masters, was never going to end well.

From trading agreement to integration

 

[two sheds]

And it does have to be said that getting free of the unelected, unaccountable, unlistening, rigid EU Commission is a result.

Shame we've got the shitshower in power that we have, but still.

 

[The39thStep]

The left in Europe would think it was odd to find a left that is as uncritical of the EU as swathes of the UK left are to be honest. Even outside of what we would consider to be left of Labour here there is tension for many European social democrats between what may be best for the national state and what may be best for the EU. There are parties and MEPs who want to reform the EU and those who want it abolished and replaced with voluntary co-operation. Others are EU sceptic when it suits them and when the cash comes stay silent. Whereas you often get the feeling from the pro EU left here is that any criticism of the EU is to be frowned upon as it is somehow seen as an endorsement of the Tories or plays into their hands.

 

[brogdale]

I feel it was that which done for the whole thing, the EU telling the UK that they were its masters, was never going to end well.

In part, though my own perception of 'typical leave voting' older members of my working class family indicated that suspicion of the supra state project was not directly expressed but more often couched in terms of:

• they lied to us last time (1975) and never told us it would be like this
• look how shit everything has become since they lied to us

not forgetting the why are the Europeans throwing open the doors to all and sundry.

 

[The39thStep]

In part, though my own perception of 'typical leave voting' older members of my working class family indicated that suspicion of the supra state project was not directly expressed but more often couched in terms of:

• they lied to us last time (1975) and never told us it would be like this
• look how shit everything has become since they lied to us

not forgetting the why are the Europeans throwing open the doors to all and sundry.

Quite astonishing that these people have no understanding about the business model of Pret A Manger

 

[brogdale]

Quite astonishing that these people have no understanding about the business model of Pret A Manger

Perhaps rather ironically, given that these were the predominant sentiments they expressed, both my elderly parents decided to ask their grandchildren how they'd like them to cast their referendum ballot...so, they held their noses, and voted remain.

 

[brogdale]

I suppose they'd make up part of this study's 'false positives' cohort given that they fell slap bang in the 'typical leave voter' criteria:

We find that voting Leave is associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction.

 

[BobDavis]

I think the sad truth is that Cummings' three-word tabloid headline-style slogans were probably the biggest factor campaign-wise. Take Back Control. Get Brexit Done. Direct, active, imperative, short.

Before the last general election I tried to persuade people to vote anything but Tory pointing out that surely they must know this was not the Tory party that some had voted for all their lives. It had morphed into a bunch of right wing extremist chancers. The most sensible rational guy I know who has voted Labour in the past said he was voting Tory just to end the impasse. He wanted to indeed get brexit done just to move on from all the arguments of the last 4 years. Think this is true of plenty of people who voted Tory through gritted teeth just to move things on.

 

[Badgers]

Think I am done with this

 

[brogdale]

Think I am done with this

Can see how such a busman's holiday of a thread for you might be a bit gutty, but don't give up on the discussion; your frontline experience is a really valuable contribution to the discussions in here.

 

[Spandex]

I think, from conversations I've had, and my own gut feelings, is that the 'stay and reform' thing died with Cameron getting the big finger when he sought to fiddle with the relationship - I think that regardless of you view of what Cameron was asking for, the EU telling one of its big members (snort, fnaar, gurgle) with 1/7th of all economic activity in the bloc, half it's P5 seats on the UNSC, half it's nukes and about 30% of its usable military force, that it could fuck off, said that serious change in any direction was simply not on the cards.

It very clearly signposted that 'the project' was the important thing, and absolutely not the servant of the member states. That turned a lot of people (probably those of soft remain, who saw the relationship in transactional terms) right off.

Cameron's "attempts to reform the EU" is a curious thing to have such importance, as Cameron never had the slightest intention of reforming the EU and never seriously tried to reform the EU. His trip round Europe in 2015 was just a blatant bit of political theatre in the run up to his announcing the referendum, which he'd already promised in his 2015 election manifesto.

If he was serious about EU reform there would've been months or years of behind the scenes negotiations trying to build a consensus amongst the EU states before politicians started meeting to finalise a deal. That way of agreeing things is an example of the undemocratic nature of how things are done in the EU.

Instead, he jumped on a plane with a list of demands that he knew wouldn't be agreed and flew around meeting leaders who knew perfectly well what he was up to - trying to create an impression that he'd tried to get a better deal and failed before announcing the referendum. That he wouldn't get what he was demanding and would then announce the referendum was a foregone conclusion and understood by everyone before he'd even started and everyone just played their part.

I think everyone assumed it didn't matter, as everyone assumed Cameron's favoured remain position would win. That Cameron's pissing around convinced some people that reform of the EU was impossible (let's put aside the debate on whether it is) and to therefore vote leave is just another example of Cameron's incompetence.

 

[Pickman's model]

Think I am done with this

but is this done with you?

 

[philosophical]

Astonishing reading above that brexit voters are saying they voted that way because what they were seeking was Irish unification on that island.
Yeah right.
To me it reads like a bollocks non justification for the damage they deliberately called on, and a desperate attempt to find some kind of justification for said damage.
Crack on brexiters/lexiters.
What's next? I voted brexit to save shellfish?

 

[Spymaster]

Astonishing reading above that brexit voters are saying they voted that way because what they were seeking was Irish unification on that island.

Who's said that?

 

[kebabking]

Who's said that?

The voices in his head, the ones he replies back to.

 

[Pickman's model]

The voices in his head, the ones he replies back to.

(((voices in his head)))

bet they wish they'd gone elsewhere

 

[Lucy Fur]

Who's said that?

I don’t claim the situation in NI to be any sort of success as it is. I always thought though the subsequent issues with Brexit in NI would push the north and south closer together.
Possibly lead to unification. That would be a big Brexit success. Time will tell.

Not specifically why they voted, but given the "I always thought" part it's reasonable to infer that informed the decision.

 

[Spymaster]

Not specifically why they voted, but given the "I always thought" part it's reasonable to infer that informed the decision.

That's not ureasonable though. There was plenty of similar speculation, not least, as I remember, from remainers and Irish posters who suggested a united Ireland might be 'one good thing to come from Brexit' and similar. It's certainly not saying that was his reason for voting leave.

 

[Lucy Fur]

That's not ureasonable though. There was plenty of similar speculation, not least, as I remember, from remainers and Irish posters who suggested a united Ireland might be 'one good thing to come from Brexit' and similar. It's certainly not saying that was his reason for voting leave.

Hence the first five words of my post.

 

[Pickman's model]

For much of the rest of the world the implosion of the UK would be no bad thing.

 

[Spymaster]

Hence the first five words of my post.

If you'd ended the post after those five words it would have been a good one.

 

[Lucy Fur]

If you'd ended the post after those five words it would have been a good one.

Whilst you fell at the first 3. I said it was reasonable, you replied it's not unreasonable.