The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[TopCat]

I really don't know the answer to be honest because I don't run a pub or a venue. Maybe it's because they're more likely to accept shitty conditions or zero hour contracts (like most of then do) because they're students/breezing through London/want to be in Brixton/can't find anything else. I really don't know. Maybe someone here is a boss and can offer their reasons.

I do know that probably something like 60-70% of the bar staff/sound crew/managers etc in the places where I put on shows are European.

We are still European.

 

[TopCat]

Yep. Welcome to Brexit threads.

He is acquainted given the late night remainer rearguard attitude.

 

[Raheem]

Do you not think it's interesting that not one single EU state, some of which have their own significant vaccine industries, chose to not get involved in the EU JPA?

None of these countries have no experience with vaccines, none of them are indifferent to having a vaccine - and yet every single one chose to place their faith in the abilities of a body that had no vaccine procurement experience whatsoever, all entirely and absolutely voluntarily.

Well, Hungary, Fwiw.

But, that aside, the UK was not for a long time like other EU countries wrt it's attitude to EU joint working. Since Cameron first became PM, it has basically been the UK's policy to either prevent or opt out of anything proposed within the EU that it was not already empowered to do. I think I'm right in saying that it's actually a perfect 100% "no" scorecard. Because there's a section of the Tory party that considered it a line in the sand and apparently hold the power of life and death over prime ministers.

I can see how it might be tempting to speculate that Covid would have been seen as different. Time to bury the hatchet and play good Europeans for a bit. It's definitely not impossible (then again, it also wasn't impossible in the actual case). But I don't see that there's any basis for having confidence that it is what would have unfolded.

Also worth noting that 2020 had been scheduled to be an election year (although it would have been when we were in lockdown), so maybe the decision would have been taken by a Labour government.

It's a whole pile of "who knows?"

 

[eatmorecheese]

Tragic thread. Some Tory spad may be reading this thread and laughing their arse off.

I hope the emnity wears off soon. Because it can't be maintained.

We all have to share this rain-soaked island, so let's try not to be dicks about it.

Peace

 

[gosub]

I think the opposite I reckon

It's a sign that the EU is strong because they are choosing to work through a crisis together and not jump ship because they selfishly have their own vaccine manufacturing capabilities. It's the definition of good practice for a union of nations.

I think the vaccine procurement thing is a bit of a red herring tbh. They may be a bit behind but not by more than a few weeks and they are paying 1/3 the price. Big picture is the whole of Europe is doing well. Amazingly considering the virus has only just past its first birthday a little while ago.

Disagree.

Not that I think any of your statements are untrue. But don't think it is a red herring, and is because the EU didn't have a scooby - which do think costs more? the vaccine or the loss of GDP whiile waiting for it (plus added EUropean citizens that die in that time frame). False economy

 

[Raheem]

Disagree.

Not that I think any of your statements are untrue. But don't think it is a red herring, and is because the EU didn't have a scooby - which do think costs more? the vaccine or the loss of GDP whiile waiting for it (plus added EUropean citizens that die in that time frame). False economy

That's totally true, but I doubt delay was part of their original plan.

 

[Supine]

Disagree.

Not that I think any of your statements are untrue. But don't think it is a red herring, and is because the EU didn't have a scooby - which do think costs more? the vaccine or the loss of GDP whiile waiting for it (plus added EUropean citizens that die in that time frame). False economy

Million Dollar question innit. Time will tell.

There is a similar thing with regulatory approval of vaccines. There is a speed / risk analysis being made by each country. We won't know who got the answer right until it's over.

 

[The39thStep]

I think the opposite I reckon

It's a sign that the EU is strong because they are choosing to work through a crisis together and not jump ship because they selfishly have their own vaccine manufacturing capabilities. It's the definition of good practice for a union of nations.

I think the vaccine procurement thing is a bit of a red herring tbh. They may be a bit behind but not by more than a few weeks and they are paying 1/3 the price. Big picture is the whole of Europe is doing well. Amazingly considering the virus has only just past its first birthday a little while ago.

I think anyone who actually follows the EU would tell you that firstly their view was that the U.K. may have gained an advantage through Brexitand that they admit they came late to the game . Secondly that they only came to an agreement on procurement to avoid a split between ‘the inclusive four’ , a possible Portuguese / Greek / Spain approach and other states . Even this didn’t stop Germany ordering outside of the procurement strategy and a hasty face saver that this was ok providing the EU ordered supplies revived priority . Both the EU strategy of we will use our buying strength to force the price down at the expense of contracts agreed early and the passing of liability to the EU state receiving the supplies was heavily criticised in the EU parliament by left wing members . As for being a few weeks behind here in Portugal they are in fact months behind due to only half the order arriving and have had to revise the vaccination schedule and priorities .

 

[gosub]

Million Dollar question innit. Time will tell.

There is a similar thing with regulatory approval of vaccines. There is a speed / risk analysis being made by each country. We won't know who got the answer right until it's over.

Thats where Brexit definitely was a factor - drug companies tried to beat the divergance window.

 

[Spymaster]

in theory both as able and as unable, though as you say, well paid jobs above the 26k threshold should be more diverse in terms of foreign workers, however the points based system is not the meritocracy it might seem - this has a good overview of how bias remains and it continues to favour certain workers over others:

Points-based immigration was meant to reduce racial bias. It doesn't | Justin Gest

While points-based systems are designed to reduce racial bias, they reproduce this bias in more subtle ways

www.theguardian.com

no migration policy is without its pitfalls
what i particularly dislike about this one is its classist nature

I wouldn't argue with that. Any immigration policy is by definition discriminatory but this one now removes the ability for Europeans to 'jump the queue' ahead of others. I don't see that as a negative and have long been of the opinion that the UKs immigration policy should give priority to current and former commonwealth nations rather than the elitist bloc. This isn't that but it's better than what we had.

 

[TopCat]

I wouldn't argue with that. Any immigration policy is by definition discriminatory but this one now removes the ability for Europeans to 'jump the queue' ahead of others. I don't see that as a negative and have long been of the opinion that the UKs immigration should give priority to current and former commonwealth nations rather than the elitist bloc. This isn't that but it's better than what we had.

It gave priority to former commonwealth countries for ages. It’s how my Mauritian relatives all got here.

 

[Yossarian]

I wouldn't argue with that. Any immigration policy is by definition discriminatory but this one now removes the ability for Europeans to 'jump the queue' ahead of others. I don't see that as a negative and have long been of the opinion that the UKs immigration policy should give priority to current and former commonwealth nations rather than the elitist bloc. This isn't that but it's better than what we had.

Why would it make sense to place more limits on workers moving freely from neighbouring countries while opening things up to a motley assortment of countries Britain invaded 300 years ago?

 

[TopCat]

Why would it make sense to place more limits on workers moving freely from neighbouring countries while opening things up to a motley assortment of countries Britain invaded 300 years ago?

Payback. Plus more likely to assimilate.

 

[Spymaster]

Why would it make sense to place more limits on workers moving freely from neighbouring countries while opening things up to a motley assortment of countries Britain invaded 300 years ago?

Recompense mainly.

 

[brogdale]

I think anyone who actually follows the EU would tell you that firstly their view was that the U.K. may have gained an advantage through Brexitand that they admit they came late to the game . Secondly that they only came to an agreement on procurement to avoid a split between ‘the inclusive four’ , a possible Portuguese / Greek / Spain approach and other states . Even this didn’t stop Germany ordering outside of the procurement strategy and a hasty face saver that this was ok providing the EU ordered supplies revived priority . Both the EU strategy of we will use our buying strength to force the price down at the expense of contracts agreed early and the passing of liability to the EU state receiving the supplies was heavily criticised in the EU parliament by left wing members . As for being a few weeks behind here in Portugal they are in fact months behind due to only half the order arriving and have had to revise the vaccination schedule and priorities .

Interesting Streeck piece in this week's NLR 'Sidecar' in which he casts the EU vaccination debacle as an effective outgrowth of German domestic politics and, specifically, Merkel's political relationship to VdL.

Up to now, no-one in Germany has dared to calculate the number of additional deaths caused by the vaccination debacle. The problem, if one is seen at all, is blamed on Brussels, but only softly due to the sacred nature of the EU in German public discourse. This may change

 

[A380]

EU border status in near real time:

Truck Border Crossing Times & Brexit Ports | Transporeon

Real-time visibility into the delays that covid-19 and Brexit are causing at European borders and ports

live.sixfold.com

 

[TopCat]

Not much in the way of delays in Dover or Calais.

 

[Badgers]

If you are interested in what is actually happening in Brexit...

I am working for HMRC on this and the change to declarations starting next week has meant my staff have been taking calls with people in tears because they can't cope with the paperwork and costs.

These are UK exporters and manufacturers. There is nothing we can do except try to explain what the changes are and why (?) they are needed.

Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson told NI businesses there would be no additional paperwork. He stated that if there was any paperwork then they should send it to him and he would put it in the bin.

Most companies we speak with say they will stop exporting/importing, relocate to the EU or are going to cease trading.

There are a lot of Brexit supporters on this thread but seriously? You think a cheese deal with Japan and some fishing banter will carry a country through a pandemic overseen by a corrupt government who promised £350m per week to the NHS?

 

[rutabowa]

Well it's a 1km queue at Dover and a 3km queue at Calais, at what should be the quietest time it will ever be as noone is travelling. It's not good.

 

[TopCat]

If you are interested in what is actually happening in Brexit...

I am working for HMRC on this and the change to declarations starting next week has meant my staff have been taking calls with people in tears because they can't cope with the paperwork and costs.

These are UK exporters and manufacturers. There is nothing we can do except try to explain what the changes are and why (?) they are needed.

Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson told NI businesses there would be no additional paperwork. He stated that if there was any paperwork then they should send it to him and he would put it in the bin.

Most companies we speak with say they will stop exporting/importing, relocate to the EU or are going to cease trading.

There are a lot of Brexit supporters on this thread but seriously? You think a cheese deal with Japan and some fishing banter will carry a country through a pandemic overseen by a corrupt government who promised £350m per week to the NHS?

The pandemic and Tory incompetence are not really down to Brexit though.
I do appreciate your front line view though.

 

[brogdale]

Not much in the way of delays in Dover or Calais.

At 68% empty returns & no tourist travel!

 

[kabbes]

Why would it make sense to place more limits on workers moving freely from neighbouring countries while opening things up to a motley assortment of countries Britain invaded 300 years ago?

“Motley”?

 

[TopCat]

It would not have been much remarked upon these delays in Eu days.

 

[Badgers]

The pandemic and Tory incompetence are not really down to Brexit though.
I do appreciate your front line view though.

Brexit under a competent government might have worked out OK (in a decade) but this shower of bastards used it as path to power and have given it lip service at best. They have robbed the country for their own ends and got rich.

Brexit on paper might work for some of our mindsets but please never claim this is going well. It is a fucking disaster managed by a greedy shit show of wankers.

All this 'You Lost' shit is pointless. Brexit is costing us all and failing across the board. Worse thing is that the £350m to the NHS has not happened. The reality is that the NHS is being sold off to US concerns and Tory chums.

 

[Yossarian]

Recompense mainly.

I'm all for righting colonial wrongs and if I was running things the policy on immigration from Commonwealth countries would be very relaxed indeed - but it's hard to see how letting Australian or South African engineers, IT experts etc. jump the queue ahead of their French or German counterparts would serve the national interest or the interests of anybody except the individuals involved .

Brexit means leaving the European Union, it doesn't have to mean Britain can't strengthen ties with its neighbours on its own terms.

 

[brogdale]

It would not have been much remarked upon these delays in Eu days.

Apples and oranges.
This looks like, as a true Leave believer, you're reaching a bit.

 

[TopCat]

Apples and oranges.
This looks like, as a true Leave believer, you're reaching a bit.

I am not a true leave believer. If there were empty shelves in the supermarkets or if prices had shot up I would acknowledge this.
A queue of 0.6 of a mile at Dover does not seem unusual in my experience of travelling across the channel.

 

[Badgers]

I am not a true leave believer. If there were empty shelves in the supermarkets or if prices had shot up I would acknowledge this.
A queue of 0.6 of a mile at Dover does not seem unusual in my experience of travelling across the channel.

Check the shelves in Northern Ireland mate

 

[brogdale]

I am not a true leave believer. If there were empty shelves in the supermarkets or if prices had shot up I would acknowledge this.
A queue of 0.6 of a mile at Dover does not seem unusual in my experience of travelling across the channel.

When you've gone through Dover with return freight at 68% empty & no tourism, eh? Yeah, right...as I said; apples & oranges.

 

[TopCat]

Check the shelves in Northern Ireland mate

Aren’t they getting more stuff from Ireland now as a result?