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The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

“Motley”?

Per the Cambridge dictionary: "Consisting of many different types that do not appear to go together."

Is there a better adjective for a group that includes Canada, Belize, Hong Kong, Fiji, Mozambique, Pakistan, Australia, Jamaica, Botswana, Cyprus, Malaysia, and the UK?
 
I don’t claim the situation in NI to be any sort of success as it is. I always thought though the subsequent issues with Brexit in NI would push the north and south closer together.
Possibly lead to unification. That would be a big Brexit success. Time will tell.
 
I don’t claim the situation in NI to be any sort of success as it is. I always thought though the subsequent issues with Brexit in NI would push the north and south closer together.
Possibly lead to unification. That would be a big Brexit success. Time will tell.
It went well in the past :D
 


An accurate reply to this:

No. WTO means WTO tariffs & national NTBs on trade with all WTO members. It also means you have to offer the same terms to all WTO members - you can't give preferential treatment to some.
 
Per the Cambridge dictionary: "Consisting of many different types that do not appear to go together."

Is there a better adjective for a group that includes Canada, Belize, Hong Kong, Fiji, Mozambique, Pakistan, Australia, Jamaica, Botswana, Cyprus, Malaysia, and the UK?
It’s a word that is culturally typically associated with commentary regarding things of many colours. As such, it’s not the word I’d personally go for when talking about the historic institutional bias against immigrants from Africa and the Indian subcontinent. I accept you didn’t mean it that way but such is the nature of the way language is used in popular discourse.
 
The Brexit misinformation has been obvious to us all from the outset of the campaign.

Issue is that their are a number of people who have self interest in this. The rest of us either buy into these lies or we suffer.
Both campaigns lied through their teeth. I always wondered though why people thought voters were heavily influenced by the campaigns. I don’t think they were particularly.
 
Both campaigns lied through their teeth. I always wondered though why people thought voters were heavily influenced by the campaigns. I don’t think they were particularly.
I agree but you must accept that there were huge financial 'interests' backing Brexit for their own benefit? The funding for Brexit was massive compared to the (Theresa May backed at one point) remain campaign?
 
If you are interested in what is actually happening in Brexit...

I am working for HMRC on this and the change to declarations starting next week has meant my staff have been taking calls with people in tears because they can't cope with the paperwork and costs.

These are UK exporters and manufacturers. There is nothing we can do except try to explain what the changes are and why (?) they are needed.

Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson told NI businesses there would be no additional paperwork. He stated that if there was any paperwork then they should send it to him and he would put it in the bin.

Most companies we speak with say they will stop exporting/importing, relocate to the EU or are going to cease trading.

There are a lot of Brexit supporters on this thread but seriously? You think a cheese deal with Japan and some fishing banter will carry a country through a pandemic overseen by a corrupt government who promised £350m per week to the NHS?

Badgers you have my sympathy, and I share your frustrations, and I share your views on the honesty and competency of what we are pleased to call the current government - the problem is that this stuff, when positioned as opposition to the UK being outside the EU, or leaving the EU as a result of a referendum with fairly high turn-out and therefore legitimacy, is that it utterly ignores huge issues of sovereignty, political legitimacy, identity and democracy and doubles down on what is in big picture terms, really small scale stuff, often in a way that looks pretty self-absorbed.

Would you argue the the moral, philosophical, and political points of, say, Scottish independence with an SNP supporter based on postage fees?

Would you argue the rights and wrongs of Irish independence on the basis that the Irish railway network disappeared, and therefore Irish independence was utterly flawed in concept?

No, I rather doubt you would - you would instinctively understand that to debate such huge issues on the basis of fairly minor technicalities would be pretty insulting to the other person and would get you absolutely nowhere, and you would debate them on these huge issues of political legitimacy and identity.

If you want to address this or that issue with the legalities and mechanism of this or that aspect of the trading relationship then fine - but it would be nice if those honking off about brexit also addressed the things they don't talk about: is this or that convenience worth being part of a proto-state with an executive, a parliament, a security and defence policy, a judiciary, an economic policy, and tentacles reaching into every other political sphere?

Or is it that you simply don't care about any of that because you have no forms to fill in, and it's easy to buy stuff off of eBay.de?

By all means support membership the EU, but be honest that it's not just a magic pill making it easier to this or that without paperwork, it's a full spectrum state with an identity and a political pathway that it is set on, and not a great deal of democratic oversight or opposition to what it does or how.

If you want others to be open, honest, nuanced and self-reflective, you need to do it yourself.
 
It’s a word that is culturally typically associated with commentary regarding things of many colours. As such, it’s not the word I’d personally go for when talking about the historic institutional bias against immigrants from Africa and the Indian subcontinent. I accept you didn’t mean it that way but such is the nature of the way language is used in popular discourse.

Is it? I certainly don’t understand it that way, except in the archaic sense of describing jesters’ costumes. Used in modern discourse I would not attribute it any other meaning than an approximate synonym of “an eclectic rag-tag mix of [nouns]”, and I don’t recall seeing or hearing it being used to mean (from context) multi-coloured.
 
Both campaigns lied through their teeth. I always wondered though why people thought voters were heavily influenced by the campaigns. I don’t think they were particularly.
Interesting point (of debate) but I think much of the voter perception had crystallised over a longer time-frame that that of the formal campaigns. Remember the right of the Tory party (& their press) had been banging on about the supra state for decades. My own view is that the 'European migrant crisis' peaking in the year before the referendum was pivotal...whatever the various campaigns led on.
 
kebabking i assume you are a leave voter? No worries about that, it is democracy.

The UK under a Tory government? I would support Scottish independence. Would also add Wales and the North to that. Likely the West Country Brexit fans would like it too ;)

As for a united Ireland I am all for it. I do fear that the factions across the 'frictionless' border may not take it so well.

Sorry to rant at people. I work in the Brexit project and it is awful. I understand that the EU is not the wonderful thing some remainers claim it is. However, I would rather have been a part of it and improving than sitting alone on a plague island blaming others while the rich get richer.
 
It’s a word that is culturally typically associated with commentary regarding things of many colours. As such, it’s not the word I’d personally go for when talking about the historic institutional bias against immigrants from Africa and the Indian subcontinent. I accept you didn’t mean it that way but such is the nature of the way language is used in popular discourse.

Fair enough - I'd be all for a points-based system that addressed previous unfair treatment to immigrants from Africa and Asia, not so much if it was a system that let people from Canada etc. and members of the elite in a disparate group of countries move to the front of the queue purely because of where they were born.
 
I think much of the voter perception had crystallised over a longer time-frame that that of the formal campaigns.

But we all know there has always been a decent amount of left-wing anti-EU analysis too, even if it was almost completely absent from any mainstream debate and was characterized more or less as more loony-left crankery. When crunch time came, it was too late to center those points, they were already too far beyond the pale for Labour to take them up (even if the PLP will had been there to do so)

Now, left-leavers are having to fight a rearguard battle explaining again and again why they aren't thick-racist leavers like the ones everybody loves to hate.

(ftr I voted Remain but am on reflection glad Leave won, in the sense of it having lanced a boil)
 
kebabking i assume you are a leave voter? No worries about that, it is democracy.

The UK under a Tory government? I would support Scottish independence. Would also add Wales and the North to that. Likely the West Country Brexit fans would like it too ;)

As for a united Ireland I am all for it. I do fear that the factions across the 'frictionless' border may not take it so well.

Sorry to rant at people. I work in the Brexit project and it is awful. I understand that the EU is not the wonderful thing some remainers claim it is. However, I would rather have been a part of it and improving than sitting alone on a plague island blaming others while the rich get richer.

I voted remain actually, with huge reservations, and huge concerns about either a leave or remain future.

I have become even less attracted to the EU, whether that would push me to becoming a leave voter I'm not sure, but it would certainly make it closer, and me even more reluctant...
 
But we all know there has always been a decent amount of left-wing anti-EU analysis too, even if it was almost completely absent from any mainstream debate and was characterized more or less as more loony-left crankery. When crunch time came, it was too late to center those points, they were already too far beyond the pale for Labour to take them up (even if the PLP will had been there to do so)

Now, left-leavers are having to fight a rearguard battle explaining again and again why they aren't thick-racist leavers like the ones everybody loves to hate.

(ftr I voted Remain but am on reflection glad Leave won, in the sense of it having lanced a boil)
Agreed.
Although some of us are old enough to remember an anti-EEC Labour left, by the time of the referendum that felt a world away. The only Lexit arguments that I heard were on here and from a few RMT speakers at various things I went to in 2016. I don't think that any Lexit arguments had any traction with the vast majority of Leave voters.
 
Now, left-leavers are having to fight a rearguard battle explaining again and again why they aren't thick-racist leavers like the ones everybody loves to hate.

I'd have voted Remain if I'd bothered voting and I'd probably vote Rejoin if there was a referendum tomorrow, but most of my conversations about Brexit in the real world have involved me defending the Lexit perspective. Though of course that hasn't happened much in the last year or so.
 
I think having politicians from Tory and labour and libbdems all fervently proclaiming leave drove a lot to vote leave and have a lasting contempt for politicians of all stripes.

ETA I meant remain. Oops.
 
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I don't think that any Lexit arguments had any traction with the vast majority of Leave voters.

I'm not sure. No Leave voters I know voted Leave because they don't like immigration - but EU corruption and lack of democracy / accountability are recurring themes. Some of them voted ''for Boris'' too, and as I understand it that was purely to ''get brexit done'' because he was the only one promising to. I personally hate that, but I do understand it; I still feel if Labour had promised to ''get brexit done'' they could have romped home in 2019. Sadly, we can never know.

I don't like to draw any general conclusions because my friends and work colleagues are a liberal bunch by and large. But my impression is they weren't swayed by left-leave arguments exactly, but that some left-leave concerns are echoed among them, whether they're aware of it or not. I am enjoying pointing this out to them when the chance comes up.

This is in Devon though. In Bristol I was meeting far more Remainers than I do now.
 
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