The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[TopCat]

Is that posh people who are key workers and need someone to look after the children? This is a step backwards for women.

Do many families of key workers have au pairs?

 

[Badgers]

Any jobs going in customs? Nephew is Maths first and needs a job.

PM me mate

 

[Poot]

Do many families of key workers have au pairs?

You're missing the point, which is that it's a choice that has been taken away. Doctors notoriously work long hours and need someone at the school gates when things go tits up.

 

[TopCat]

You're missing the point, which is that it's a choice that has been taken away. Doctors notoriously work long hours and need someone at the school gates when things go tits up.

They can still employ someone? Just have to pay minimum wage.

 

[TopCat]

I can’t think of anyone I have ever known in a high viz compulsory job to ever have an au pair. The lack of a spare bedroom would usually preclude.

 

[sleaterkinney]

When the grace period expires will be the big test. No reason to think the uk govt is prepared not euro business importing here. The uk govt probably thought a further agreement is possible before then. Though there is not much good will as shown with the vaccine border debacle.

Whether the desire from the EU to keep their exports here going will cause them to thrash something out remains to be seen.

Any jobs going in customs? Nephew is Maths first and needs a job.

What is this grace period?. The UK is just waving stuff through. HM customs only has 16 more staff today than they did in 2015.

 

[Poot]

They can still employ someone? Just have to pay minimum wage.

I doubt they want 'someone', they want someone that the child knows. Most other childcare options are a lot less flexible because they take in a number of children. It was a very good system. It suited all parties.

Sorry, are we only talking about hi viz here? I have a hi viz job and a small house, and I couldn't possibly have had an au pair, but I also have an imagination.

 

[Badgers]

What is this grace period?. The UK is just waving stuff through. HM customs only has 16 more staff today than they did in 2015.

Plus 800 private sector outsourcing jobs

 

[mojo pixy]

This is a step backwards for women.

Not necessarily for the (mainly women) who do the work, for less than minimum wage, and who are overworked with no recourse to anyone if things go wrong or there is (and it's not as rare as the au pair companies like to play down) abuse. Au pairs are not considered emplyees and don't get anything like full employee rights, it's completely unacceptable.

This is just one article, from the top of a search, but there are dozens like it.

 

[bimble]

The au pair thing, no way those jobs will get taken up locally instead, why would you want to live in someone’s spare room & look after their kids for pocket money in your own country. Only makes sense if its somewhere else, that you want to go to, with a language to learn etc.

 

[Poot]

Not necessarily for the (mainly women) who do the work, for less than minimum wage, and who are overworked with no recourse to anyone if things go wrong or there is (and it's not as rare as the au pair companies like to play down) abuse. Au pairs are not considered emplyees and don't get anything like full employee rights, it's completely unacceptable.

This is just one article, from the top of a search, but there are dozens like it.

I can't see that link.

 

[mojo pixy]

I can't see that link.

It works, but in case it gets broken...

Welcome to the most unregulated labour market in Britain. Since 2008, au pairs have been specifically excluded from the legal definition of “worker” or “employee”: they have no right to the national minimum wage, they are not covered by health and safety regulations, there are no limits on their working hours and they have no legal right to holidays or any time off.

In theory an au pair is a young person, normally from another EU country, who will do 25 to 30 hours of childcare and housework in exchange for room, board and “pocket money” and is treated as a member of the family. In practice, the working and living conditions of au pairs often fall far outside these expectations. Rather than being young women on a fun gap year aboard, too often au pairs are a hidden, exploited group of low-paid migrant workers. When you add to this the dominance of unregulated online agencies and high rates of youth unemployment in many EU countries that au pairs come from, it’s easy to see how problems might arise.

with another academic, Nicky Busch, found that many au pairs are carrying out long hours of work, for very low pay, often in conditions that are far outside the traditional imaginings of the role. In the absence of official data, we analysed online ads and found that the average au pair was expected to work 38.7 hours a week (hardly a part-time job). One in 10 ads were looking for 50 hours or more, with one advertising an 80-hour week. The average “pocket money” offered in return was £108 per week, but it was striking that there was no correlation between the hours to be worked and the amount offered. Some hosts offered none at all, seeing a room in their home as payment enough, and some ads didn’t even offer a room, wanting a “live-out au pair”, or for them to sleep on the sofa.

It was common for ads to set out duties that went beyond “help” with childcare and housework, including shopping, cleaning windows, caring for relatives’ children, waitressing or cooking for dinner parties, gardening, teaching a child a language, and more. One ad stated that the family wanted an au pair to help with their business as well as “helping to run the home”. Another offered “use of horse and kayak” as part of the remuneration package. Worryingly, we found that many au pairs are expected to do work that in the past would have been done by a qualified nanny, including providing sole care for babies and infants.
Interviews with au pairs reinforced this picture of “au pair” being a catch-all term for low-paid domestic work. They told us about long hours of housework, overwhelming childcare duties, and a general expectation that they could sort out all the stresses and strains of modern life for their host families.
Many of them did have good things to say about their time as au pairs and the families they lived with, but we also heard lots of comments about being treated “like a servant”. Examples included being denied opportunities to attend language classes or other activities, always being on call and being given inadequate space and even inadequate food. One summed up this grinding day-to-day denigration with a story about fruit juice. When her host mother noticed some juice missing from the fridge, she told her: “This [juice] is really expensive. If you want some juice you can tell me and I’ll buy you some cheap juice.” So much for being treated as an equal.

While Uber drivers and Deliveroo couriers are left without rights because they are deemed to be self-employed, au pairs’ work is quite simply defined as not being work. Instead they are considered to be “helping” their host families and involved in cultural exchange rather than labour, no matter how many hours of work they do or how arduous that work is. When you live with your employers, negotiating better conditions – or even just better juice – is not easy.

While the prospect of the stream of au pairs drying up post-Brexit has created some recognition of how important they are, we should also pause to consider why so many families are reliant on an unregulated, insecure and often exploited group of workers. The British Au Pairs Agencies Association has released new guidelines on what an au pair should be. At the very least, the government needs to adopt these and enforce them. But a bigger step would be to recognise childcare and housework as real work.

 

[TopCat]

I doubt they want 'someone', they want someone that the child knows. Most other childcare options are a lot less flexible because they take in a number of children. It was a very good system. It suited all parties.

Sorry, are we only talking about hi viz here? I have a hi viz job and a small house, and I couldn't possibly have had an au pair, but I also have an imagination.

Many have argued (including many existing and former au pairs) that it’s a system ripe with exploitation.
Im not sure. Thinking about it I have never known anyone, key worker or professional type to have an au pair. I must move in different worlds.

 

[mojo pixy]

And let me add (now there's a post between my last and this so this is meant to be a PS to the article text) that stay-at-home parents should be paid enough in benefits (or wages) to recognize that what they do is real work.

 

[TopCat]

Dp

 

[TopCat]

Do many urbanites have au pairs? I can’t recollect anyone saying so in 20 years.

 

[Poot]

It works, but in case it gets broken...

Welcome to the most unregulated labour market in Britain. Since 2008, au pairs have been specifically excluded from the legal definition of “worker” or “employee”: they have no right to the national minimum wage, they are not covered by health and safety regulations, there are no limits on their working hours and they have no legal right to holidays or any time off.

In theory an au pair is a young person, normally from another EU country, who will do 25 to 30 hours of childcare and housework in exchange for room, board and “pocket money” and is treated as a member of the family. In practice, the working and living conditions of au pairs often fall far outside these expectations. Rather than being young women on a fun gap year aboard, too often au pairs are a hidden, exploited group of low-paid migrant workers. When you add to this the dominance of unregulated online agencies and high rates of youth unemployment in many EU countries that au pairs come from, it’s easy to see how problems might arise.

with another academic, Nicky Busch, found that many au pairs are carrying out long hours of work, for very low pay, often in conditions that are far outside the traditional imaginings of the role. In the absence of official data, we analysed online ads and found that the average au pair was expected to work 38.7 hours a week (hardly a part-time job). One in 10 ads were looking for 50 hours or more, with one advertising an 80-hour week. The average “pocket money” offered in return was £108 per week, but it was striking that there was no correlation between the hours to be worked and the amount offered. Some hosts offered none at all, seeing a room in their home as payment enough, and some ads didn’t even offer a room, wanting a “live-out au pair”, or for them to sleep on the sofa.

It was common for ads to set out duties that went beyond “help” with childcare and housework, including shopping, cleaning windows, caring for relatives’ children, waitressing or cooking for dinner parties, gardening, teaching a child a language, and more. One ad stated that the family wanted an au pair to help with their business as well as “helping to run the home”. Another offered “use of horse and kayak” as part of the remuneration package. Worryingly, we found that many au pairs are expected to do work that in the past would have been done by a qualified nanny, including providing sole care for babies and infants.
Interviews with au pairs reinforced this picture of “au pair” being a catch-all term for low-paid domestic work. They told us about long hours of housework, overwhelming childcare duties, and a general expectation that they could sort out all the stresses and strains of modern life for their host families.
Many of them did have good things to say about their time as au pairs and the families they lived with, but we also heard lots of comments about being treated “like a servant”. Examples included being denied opportunities to attend language classes or other activities, always being on call and being given inadequate space and even inadequate food. One summed up this grinding day-to-day denigration with a story about fruit juice. When her host mother noticed some juice missing from the fridge, she told her: “This [juice] is really expensive. If you want some juice you can tell me and I’ll buy you some cheap juice.” So much for being treated as an equal.


While Uber drivers and Deliveroo couriers are left without rights because they are deemed to be self-employed, au pairs’ work is quite simply defined as not being work. Instead they are considered to be “helping” their host families and involved in cultural exchange rather than labour, no matter how many hours of work they do or how arduous that work is. When you live with your employers, negotiating better conditions – or even just better juice – is not easy.
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While the prospect of the stream of au pairs drying up post-Brexit has created some recognition of how important they are, we should also pause to consider why so many families are reliant on an unregulated, insecure and often exploited group of workers. The British Au Pairs Agencies Association has released new guidelines on what an au pair should be. At the very least, the government needs to adopt these and enforce them. But a bigger step would be to recognise childcare and housework as real work.

Thank you. It sounds as though there is a lot of exploitation and that should be immediately stopped with better laws.

When I lived in London some of my mates were au pairs and had daytime jobs too. It worked very well for them but I can see how it would be open to exploitation.

However, having juggled childcare and ultimately having downgraded my career because it wasn't workable, I don't feel anything but sorrow for the people - especially women - whose only real childcare choice has been taken away.

 

[Poot]

Do many urbanites have au pairs? I can’t recollect anyone saying so in 20 years.

Most have to employ some sort of childcare if they work, I should think. Why?

 

[The39thStep]

right on cue

Lib Dems: Uneasy party ponders long road back to EU

Ed Davey wants to focus on Covid but others seek more immediate answer to lingering Brexit question.

www.bbc.co.uk

Councillor John Potter (no relation to his Surrey colleague) argues that highlighting the economic impact of Brexit and the consequences of Boris Johnson's trade deal with the EU are the best ways to make the case for EU membership in the longer term.

Sir Ed appears to agree, telling the BBC: "I'm pretty firm that this trade deal is a disaster and we will make the argument that the single market and customs union are things we should be backing and campaigning on."

Must be reading or posting on here lol

 

[bimble]

Come on Poot only feckless and laughable posh women pay others to look after their children whilst they swan off and do other work, outside the house. Au Pair is a funny word cos it’s foreign but Nanny is even more ridiculous. There’s nothing sexist about this though it’s just how it is.

 

[TopCat]

Most have to employ some sort of childcare if they work, I should think. Why?

That wasn’t what I asked. Has anyone taken on an au pair was the type of childcare in question. We paid for nursery for our two kids and it was an eye watering amount. More than my net earnings. We would never have considered having an au pair though.

 

[Poot]

That wasn’t what I asked. Has anyone taken on an au pair was the type of childcare in question. We paid for nursery for our two kids and it was an eye watering amount. More than my net earnings. We would never have considered having an au pair though.

I know of one or two but I'm not going to out them because this feels like a loaded question for some reason.

 

[TopCat]

I know of one or two but I'm not going to out them because this feels like a loaded question for some reason.

I wouldn’t want you to. It could be like a furore like about cleaners.

 

[TopCat]

Must be reading or posting on here lol

Ed banging the drum openly for rejoining in some way was quite open. If this becomes central to the LP they will never get elected.

 

[mojo pixy]

There’s nothing sexist about this though it’s just how it is.

Why, in your view, are the vast majority of au pairs female?

 

[The39thStep]

I can’t think of anyone I have ever known in a high viz compulsory job to ever have an au pair. The lack of a spare bedroom would usually preclude.

I have never met anyone who has an au pair. We should be campaigning for an expansion of childcare at affordable and for the low paid , subsidised rates not some sort of Indentured servitude masked by the pretence of 'cultural exchange'.

 

[bimble]

Why, in your view, are the vast majority of au pairs female?

Because the world is sexist? I just can’t think of any other work which invites such derision of the person who pays the worker. Which is curious, imo.

 

[mauvais]

I can think of people on here who have or have had au pairs.

 

[TopCat]

Because the world is sexist? I just can’t think of any other work which invites such derision of the person who pays the worker. Which is curious, imo.

People who employ cleaners tend to get it in the neck to be fair. In fact any person employing poor women to do their drudgery tends to get comment.

 

[mojo pixy]

Because the world is sexist? I just can’t think of any other work which invites such derision of the person who pays the worker. Which is curious, imo.

Maybe the lack of worker's rights and that the whole deal smacks of exploitation is what makes it look ridiculous?