The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[Poot]

I have never met anyone who has an au pair. We should be campaigning for an expansion of childcare at affordable and for the low paid , subsidised rates not some sort of Indentured servitude masked by the pretence of 'cultural exchange'.

I'm not saying it's not a noble goal but we have a Tory government ffs. There'll be no subsidising traditionally female jobs going on while this lot are in.

 

[TopCat]

I can think of people on here who have or have had au pairs.

I don’t think it’s ever been openly discussed though. Maybe on the sofa thread perhaps.

I only know people who have been au pairs

 

[Poot]

People who employ cleaners tend to get it in the neck to be fair. In fact any person employing poor women to do their drudgery tends to get comment.

What about people who employ handymen or gardeners? What about old people who need cleaners? What if you're a brain surgeon and don't have time to clean and you pay more than the going rate? I suspect your ire is directed at middle class women. Am I right? At least be brave enough to say it. If you're honest we can discuss it.

 

[TopCat]

What about people who employ handymen or gardeners? What about old people who need cleaners? What if you're a brain surgeon and don't have time to clean and you pay more than the going rate? I suspect your ire is directed at middle class women. Am I right? At least be brave enough to say it. If you're honest we can discuss it.

You have enough for several interesting threads there.

 

[bimble]

Maybe the lack of worker's rights and that the whole deal smacks of exploitation is what makes it look ridiculous?

I’m not defending the au pair system!
If everyone were paid proper money for the work of childcare the world would be infinitely improved, yes.

But the joke was “posh people might be forced to spend time with their own children lol”, that’s nothing to do with worker’s conditions is it?

 

[Yossarian]

One thing I would not expect a Tory government to do is cause a shortage of au pairs.

In Hong Kong and Singapore, it's totally unremarkable for someone in a middle-income job i.e teacher to employ a live-in domestic servant, around a fifth of households in both places do so and the percentage would probably be higher if the average flat was bigger than a shoebox.

In HK, they typically come from the Philippines or Indonesia - the latter country has gained favour over the last couple of decades because they are seen as less rebellious - and they get paid around 500 pounds a month for unlimited working hours six days a week. Under the law, they are in a special category where things like minimum wage and the granting of permanent residency after seven years residency do not apply.

People thought I was a bit weird for not employing one, especially after having a kid, but there was no way in hell I could ever see myself having a live-in "helper," especially not under that shitty system. But it's how a lot of households in Hong Kong managed to have both parents working the insane hours HK employers generally require, and it's part of how both places became so wealthy.

The Tories seem to bring up Singapore a lot in their vision of a post-Brexit Britain, I would be totally unsurprised if they unveiled a plan to bring in cheap domestic labour from some non-EU country in the near future.

 

[mojo pixy]

But the joke was “posh people might be forced to spend time with their own children lol”, that’s nothing to do with worker’s conditions is it?

Fair enough, but it would be absurd to talk about this stuff as if there aren't massive class issues at play. How many women around the world hardly or never get to see their own kids because they're too busy looking after other people's for money? Rhetorical question btw, I imagine an actual answer is impossible to find.

 

[bimble]

Fair enough, but it would be absurd to talk about this stuff as if there aren't massive class issues at play. How many women around the world hardly or never get to see their own kids because they're too busy looking after other people's for money? Rhetorical question btw, I imagine an actual answer is impossible to find.

I blame the whole idea of the nuclear family, we should be bringing up kids communally. But brexit making the au pair system stop is a step in the right direction.

 

[Flavour]

Feel I need to weigh in on the au pair thing though disclaimer, I am a man and do not have children.

1. I know family members of mine who have employed au pairs -- all these family members live in the South.
2. I myself was raised by a working single mother, in Manchester -- I did not have an au pair, ever.
3. What I did have was a childminder as we called them. Basically after school me and a bunch of others kid with working parents all went together to this family's house and we sat around watching CBBC (or Nickelodeon after they got cable) eating toast and generally having a laugh from the hours of 3.30pm or whenever school finished until 5.30pm or 6 or whenever the parents came to pick us up. This was the affordable childcare alternative and obviously everyone paid the family who looked after us for a couple of hours a day.

The difference between au pairs and cleaners/gardeners is that it is generally not very common for a bunch of friends to all live next door to each other and therefore hire a gardener/cleaner collectively and get some sort of discount rate on that gardener/cleaner cos you're providing them a shitload of work which will have no transport between jobs. But with au pairs the (middle class) family is choosing to dedicate a human being exclusively to their own children and therefore denying those children the opportunity to create other social bonds with other kids (the kids at my childminders place were not all in my same class at school so I made new friends) ... but this is obviously logistically easier cos kids all do go to the same schools, whereas our gardens and houses to be cleaned are necessarily distinct inanimate objects.

e2a: "But of course my children get plenty of chances to socialize with other children outside of school! That's what violin class and fencing is for!"

 

[Poot]

Feel I need to weigh in on the au pair thing though disclaimer, I am a man and do not have children.

1. I know family members of mine who have employed au pairs -- all these family members live in the South.
2. I myself was raised by a working single mother, in Manchester -- I did not have an au pair, ever.
3. What I did have was a childminder as we called them. Basically after school me and a bunch of others kid with working parents all went together to this family's house and we sat around watching CBBC (or Nickelodeon after she got cable) eating toast and generally having a laugh from the hours of 3.30pm or whenever school finished until 5.30pm or 6 or whenever the parents came to pick us up. This was the affordable childcare alternative and obviously everyone paid the family who looked after us for a couple of hours a day.

The difference between au pairs and cleaners/gardeners is that it is generally not very common for a bunch of friends to all live next door to each other and therefore hire a gardener/cleaner collectively and get some sort of discount rate on that gardener/cleaner cos you're providing them a shitload of work which will have no transport between jobs. But with au pairs the (yes, middle fucking class) family is choosing to dedicate a human being exclusively to their own children and therefore denying those children the opportunity to create other social bonds with other kids (the kids at my childminders place were not all in my class, I made new friends) ... but this is obviously logistically easier cos kids all do go to the same schools, whereas our gardens and houses to be cleaned are necessarily distinct inanimate objects.

Completely missing the point that small children can't walk to the childminder's themselves and need help with absofuckinglutely everything, and constant supervision.

 

[Flavour]

Completely missing the point that small children can't walk to the childminder's themselves and need help with absofuckinglutely everything, and constant supervision.

The childminder family picked us up from school, we didn't walk there by ourselves. They lived a 5 min walk away, even the kids in reception were up for it. But yes my mum was 100% responsible for everything that happened in the mornings before school and for cooking dinner once she got home from work -- I'm not saying it was easy for her, it bloody well wasn't. Just that there were alternatives to au pairs that were a bit more social.

 

[Supine]

My mum was an au pair. She didn't earn any money but she learnt to speak Italian fluently and loved the life experience.

 

[ska invita]

ive googled, current number of au pairs in the uk in a year is estimated at 90k.

im sure the tories will be making some deals for easier work visas from certain countries/certain conditions- CANZUK has received the most excited chatter amongst the tory backbencher - but i guess theres not the allure of learning a new language in those cases

 

[Pickman's model]

ive googled, current number of au pairs in the uk in a year is estimated at 90k.

im sure the tories will be making some deals for easier work visas from certain countries/certain conditions- CANZUK has received the most excited chatter amongst the tory backbencher - but i guess theres not the allure of learning a new language in those cases

Depends where in Canada UK au pairs go I suppose

 

[Winot]

But with au pairs the (middle class) family is choosing to dedicate a human being exclusively to their own children and therefore denying those children the opportunity to create other social bonds with other kids (

Au pairs (and childminders of all descriptions, including parents) tend to gather together after school to give the adults a chance to chat and the children a chance to play. Your statement exposes your prejudice and your lack of knowledge.

 

[Poot]

One thing I would not expect a Tory government to do is cause a shortage of au pairs.

In Hong Kong and Singapore, it's totally unremarkable for someone in a middle-income job i.e teacher to employ a live-in domestic servant, around a fifth of households in both places do so and the percentage would probably be higher if the average flat was bigger than a shoebox.

In HK, they typically come from the Philippines or Indonesia - the latter country has gained favour over the last couple of decades because they are seen as less rebellious - and they get paid around 500 pounds a month for unlimited working hours six days a week. Under the law, they are in a special category where things like minimum wage and the granting of permanent residency after seven years residency do not apply.

People thought I was a bit weird for not employing one, especially after having a kid, but there was no way in hell I could ever see myself having a live-in "helper," especially not under that shitty system. But it's how a lot of households in Hong Kong managed to have both parents working the insane hours HK employers generally require, and it's part of how both places became so wealthy.

The Tories seem to bring up Singapore a lot in their vision of a post-Brexit Britain, I would be totally unsurprised if they unveiled a plan to bring in cheap domestic labour from some non-EU country in the near future.

I liked this whole post because it's always good to see what goes on elsewhere and it was interesting but the last sentence worries me a lot. People are scoffing at EU au pairs and clearly there was more exploitation than I realised - I've only seen it going well, from both PoV, but yeah, laws that exploit specifically women, and specifically foreign women, are going to have to be watched like a hawk for a while. We know what they do. We know what they're capable of.

 

[The39thStep]

ive googled, current number of au pairs in the uk in a year is estimated at 90k.

im sure the tories will be making some deals for easier work visas from certain countries/certain conditions- CANZUK has received the most excited chatter amongst the tory backbencher - but i guess theres not the allure of learning a new language in those cases

I had a look at the same site that you got the figures from and the thing that stood out for me was this quote

“Au pairs currently have no protection in terms of working hours, pay and living conditions. They are only affordable because au pairing is not recognised as work, while poor conditions are justified through discourses of cultural exchange and adventure. The government introduced guidelines in June 2014, but these contain vague terms which need clarification and they need to be backed up by providing au pairs with a means of redress if they find that they are being badly treated by their host family.

“The fact that so many families are reliant on au pairs and in many cases expect them to take on full-time care of very young infants highlights once again the need for access to flexible and affordable childcare."

 

[ska invita]

childcare is a massive issue in the UK and has been for years, i dont have kids but i don't understand how people can afford it on top of all the other costs of living. i guess retired relatives fill a gap fora lot of people, but not everyone has that

 

[TopCat]

I liked this whole post because it's always good to see what goes on elsewhere and it was interesting but the last sentence worries me a lot. People are scoffing at EU au pairs and clearly there was more exploitation than I realised - I've only seen it going well, from both PoV, but yeah, laws that exploit specifically women, and specifically foreign women, are going to have to be watched like a hawk for a while. We know what they do. We know what they're capable of.

Do you think Au pairs deserve minimum wage right now?

 

[ska invita]

Do you think Au pairs deserve minimum wage right now?

the system is based on food and rent free though, so it would be an accounting exercise (once those costs were added into the bottom line)

 

[TopCat]

.

 

[The39thStep]

the system is based on food and rent free though, so it would be an accounting exercise (once those costs were added into the bottom line)

The system in the UK and most of Europe is based on it being a 'cultural exchange' not work .

 

[Treacle Toes]

Why, in your view, are the vast majority of au pairs female?

I personally think that 'risk' comes into this as well as seeing childcare as a female job. I think lots of people are scared of leaving males/men in charge of children. There is a long standing cultural distrust and assumption that men/males will abuse children. Just look at the way female abuse of children is treated as something unusual. It isn't though.

 

[ska invita]

The system in the UK and most of Europe is based on it being a 'cultural exchange' not work .

i didnt know that, but my point is if it was treated as work with minimum wage+ people would charge for room and board too i expect

 

[The39thStep]

i didnt know that, but my point is if it was treated as work with minimum wage+ people would charge for room and board too i expect

Apparantly Ireland pays the minum wage.

 

[ska invita]

Apparantly Ireland pays the minum wage.

and free room + board?

 

[mojo pixy]

The main problem with 'Free Room and Board' as 'payment' is its history IMO. Slaves, bonded labourers etc all got/get 'free room and board'. That doesn't make au pairs the same as slaves, but free room and board in exchange for long days of work has an inglorious history, to say the least. Whether it even has any place in the 21st century is very very arguable.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The main problem with 'Free Room and Board' as 'payment' is its history IMO. Slaves, bonded labourers etc all got/get 'free room and board'. That doesn't make au pairs the same as slaves, but free room and board in exchange for long days of work has an inglorious history, to say the least. Whether it even has any place in the 21st century is very very arguable.

I agree. I hate that they call financial compensation for the work au pairs do 'pocket money' too. I have known a fair few au pairs. Some have had awful experiences. Literally used as servants. List of expected duties growing once they moved in with the family and started work. Some trapped because of the upheaval of moving to a new country in the first place and dodgy agencies.

 

[The39thStep]

and free room + board?

I should be charging you a google search fee , this is from 2020

What are your rights as an Au Pair?

Au Pairs in Ireland are considered employees and have the same rights as any other employee, including the right to minimum wage. The minimum wage in Ireland increased to €10.10 (from €9.80) from 1 February 2020.



Minimum wage rates

	Minimum hourly rate €
Minimum wage (Aged 20 or over)	10.10
Aged 19	9.09
Aged 18	8.08
Aged under 18	7.07

Can a host family make any deductions?
In certain cases, yes. If your host family provides you with board (food) and lodgings (accommodation), then they are entitled to deduct the following amounts:

– For board only: €0.90 per hour worked (calculation at hourly rate)

– For lodgings only: €23.86 per week or €3.42 per day



What are your rights as an Au Pair?
As an Au Pair you should be aware of the following rights which you are entitled to:

• Au Pairs are entitled to the National minimum wage as noted above, allowing for the deductions for board and lodgings if appropriate
• Au Pairs should be given a written statement which covers the terms of their contract and should be provided with payslips
• Au Pairs must not work more than 48 hours per week or an average of 48 hours per week calculated over a four-month period
• Au Pairs are entitled to annual leave of at least 4 working weeks per year and a record of hours worked and holidays taken should be kept
• Minimum notice periods should be given on termination of employment
• Au Pairs are entitled to rest breaks of 15 minutes for every 4.5 hours worked or 30 minutes for every 6 hours worked
• Au Pairs must be provided with a safe and healthy working environment
• The onus to comply with the laws and regulations rests with the family as the employer

 

[Pickman's model]

I have been paying attention for a lot longer than 23 years.
If it helps you, I used nascent to refer to the recent upsurge of something that had been relatively quiet in recent times, but the problem having been given new energy because of the brexit vote.

What a pity that's not what it means