The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[Poot]

Do you think Au pairs deserve minimum wage right now?

This is difficult because if you only work, say fifteen hours a week and you are under 20, that comes to less than 100 p/w. Which is not much more than your rent, especially if you aren't paying for food. And it's a bit of a shitshow to be handing someone a tenner at the end of the week when they're neither a child nor a slave. So I'd say that terms have to be agreed in advance. Will they get a job too? Lots of au pairs work part time (or they used to before Brexit). As far as deserve - of course, everyone deserves a living wage.

 

[teqniq]

Well this is all going swimmingly:

Fury at Gove as exports to EU slashed by 68% since Brexit

Hauliers say Cabinet Office minister ignored their warnings, amid fears that worse is to come with introduction of import checks in July

www.theguardian.com

 

[not-bono-ever]

some people treat au pairs like slaves, most dont.

 

[andysays]

some people treat au pairs like slaves, most dont.

But the problem is that in the absence of proper employment rights, and the fact that au pairs are usually young and away from home for the first time in a foreign country means that they can, and frequently are, treated very badly and have little redress in such cases.

 

[The39thStep]

This is difficult because if you only work, say fifteen hours a week and you are under 20, that comes to less than 100 p/w. Which is not much more than your rent, especially if you aren't paying for food. And it's a bit of a shitshow to be handing someone a tenner at the end of the week when they're neither a child nor a slave. So I'd say that terms have to be agreed in advance. Will they get a job too? Lots of au pairs work part time (or they used to before Brexit). As far as deserve - of course, everyone deserves a living wage.

According to what passed as guidance in a very unregulated market au pairs were/are expected to work between 25-30 hours a week plus two nights baby sitting . I'll come back to the neither child nor slave issue later.

 

[not-bono-ever]

.

 

[maomao]

99% of people who have au pairs could be wonderful to them (I doubt it's that high) but without legal rights and protections it's just allowing preventable abuse.

I dated a Czech au pair nearly 30 years ago and heard some horror stories. Marvellous working conditions and equal status with the host family certainly wasn't the norm.

 

[not-bono-ever]

99% of people who have au pairs could be wonderful to them (I doubt it's that high) but without legal rights and protections it's just allowing preventable abuse.

I dated a Czech au pair nearly 30 years ago and heard some horror stories. Marvellous working conditions and equal status with the host family certainly wasn't the norm.

the system of AP specific visas did/ does put the AP at a disadvantage as it can be used as enforcement of less than ideal work conditions and fear on the side of the AP about their legal status should they upset their sponsor

 

[ska invita]

The main problem with 'Free Room and Board' as 'payment' is its history IMO. Slaves, bonded labourers etc all got/get 'free room and board'. That doesn't make au pairs the same as slaves, but free room and board in exchange for long days of work has an inglorious history, to say the least. Whether it even has any place in the 21st century is very very arguable.

history and present, that indentured thing is still prevalent, happens in the UK too, crop pickers, sex workers, etc

Well this is all going swimmingly:

Fury at Gove as exports to EU slashed by 68% since Brexit

Hauliers say Cabinet Office minister ignored their warnings, amid fears that worse is to come with introduction of import checks in July

www.theguardian.com

i think on other thread, its 48% if you take off covid reductions

 

[philosophical]

What a pity that's not what it means

What a pity that you are my own special stalker on here.

What a pity that's not what it means

I thought I had shed my own personal control freak stalker, but alas no.
The wanker wants to split hairs over the meaning of, and my use of the word 'nascent'.
Typical deflection from the issue of a risk of return to troubles caused by brexit which is what my post was referencing.

 

[ska invita]

I should be charging you a google search fee , this is from 2020

this should definitely be adopted in the UK, sounds a much better system. - capping the amount that can be charged is essential
good moment for it to happen, its not like the subject of au pairs ever comes up
thanks for googling

how many hours worked is a nebulous thing though - if you live with someone to some degree you are always working / on hand to "help"

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

What a pity that you are my own special stalker on here.

I thought I had shed my own personal control freak stalker, but alas no.
The wanker wants to split hairs over the meaning of, and my use of the word 'nascent'.
Typical deflection from the issue of a risk of return to troubles caused by brexit which is what my post was referencing.

If you make a choice to use fancy words to try and make yourself look clever, complaining when it is pointed out that you have used it incorrectly makes you look twice as much a dick. Streisand effect.

 

[The39thStep]

The only reason I know a bit about this is my eldest daughter did an extended piece of work on au pairs when she was doing her law degree and I found it fascinating . So some more brief thoughts .
The question of whether some host families / employers are good or bad is an issue but it’s not the issue . However commendable some might be what we have or had is a situation where , in any other shape or form , temporary migratory workers have no employment rights. Not only that but the ‘living as part of the family’ becomes blurred with the host family as an employer . So things like which areas of the house the au pair can be in when not working becomes and issue ie do they eat with the family , can they use the living room , can they have friends round , can they access the kitchen at any hour , can they have mates visit or stay overnight , can boyfriends/ girlfriends stay over night , what hours and when they work becomes an issue when are they off duty? Etc etc
Another problematic area is that most au pairs are young women ( can’t be married or have children apparently ) . Living as part of the family are they treated as equals or treated like an older child/ big sister ?
Even though au pairs don’t formally require child care qualifications but many agencies insist on previous experience so that they can charge additional fees which again blurs the notion that it’s a cultural exchange . In the U.K. employers/ families do not have to pay for language lessons for au pairs .
There’s a mine field of issues to be honest that raise issues of class gender and not least race . A glance at the U.K. au pair sites shows a virtual monopoly of images of young white blonde Northern European women being marketed not reflecting either the diversity of Europe or the skills of non white candidates .

 

[philosophical]

If you make a choice to use fancy words to try and make yourself look clever, complaining when it is pointed out that you have used it incorrectly makes you look twice as much a dick. Streisand effect.

Bollocks of course. Words are words. That you call some 'fancy' is completely down to you, not necessarily the user.
It wasn't pointed out I used the word incorrectly, it was an opinion stated for no good reason, and my use of the word wasn't 'incorrect' anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

Bollocks of course. Words are words. That you call some 'fancy' is completely down to you, not necessarily the user.
It wasn't pointed out I used the word incorrectly, it was an opinion stated for no good reason, and my use of the word wasn't 'incorrect' anyway.

Apart from the existence and activity of a range of non-provo republican groups for many, many years there's been enough material for whole books have been written about them over the past 23 years, to take three at random John Horgan's 'divided we stand' (2013), Maria McGlinchey's 'unfinished business' (2019), P.M. Currie and Max Taylor (eds.), 'dissident Irish republicanism' (2011), not to mention the trenchant critiques of the provisional project such as Anthony McIntyre's work. There's a range of republican political voices such as eirigi which have emerged over the past quarter of a century. To say dissident voices or activity are only nascent is to show your utter ignorance of what's been going on for more than two decades, not to mention the language where nascent refers to the birth and early development of something, so you could say in say 1970 the nascent provos. You couldn't say the same in 1992 without being thought a twat. So why you think you can say the same without having the obvious shortcomings of your claim isn't clear.i think it's because of your gross self-regard and sense of entitlement. Why do you think it is?

 

[andysays]

Apart from the existence and activity of a range of non-provo republican groups for many, many years there's been enough material for whole books have been written about them over the past 23 years, to take three at random John Horgan's 'divided we stand' (2013), Maria McGlinchey's 'unfinished business' (2019), P.M. Currie and Max Taylor (eds.), 'dissident Irish republicanism' (2011), not to mention the trenchant critiques of the provisional project such as Anthony McIntyre's work. There's a range of republican political voices such as eirigi which have emerged over the past quarter of a century. To say dissident voices or activity are only nascent is to show your utter ignorance of what's been going on for more than two decades, not to mention the language where nascent refers to the birth and early development of something, so you could say in say 1970 the nascent provos. You couldn't say the same in 1992 without being thought a twat. So why you think you can say the same without having the obvious shortcomings of your claim isn't clear.i think it's because of your gross self-regard and sense of entitlement. Why do you think it is?

I don't want to get involved in an argument about the meaning of particular words, but I thought I'd read that at least some of the recent violence or threats of violence around the border were from loyalist/unionist paramilitary types

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't want to get involved in an argument about the meaning of particular words, but I thought I'd read that at least some of the recent violence or threats of violence around the border were from loyalist/unionist paramilitary types

you mean the nascent dissident activity in the north of Ireland the much misnamed philosophical referred to? Maybe you're right. But it wouldn't be the birth of such a thing but the rebirth as this article notes Could Brexit bring about the rebirth of a violent dissident loyalist movement? | Northern Slant which outlines the development of dissident loyalism since the gfa

 

[philosophical]

Apart from the existence and activity of a range of non-provo republican groups for many, many years there's been enough material for whole books have been written about them over the past 23 years, to take three at random John Horgan's 'divided we stand' (2013), Maria McGlinchey's 'unfinished business' (2019), P.M. Currie and Max Taylor (eds.), 'dissident Irish republicanism' (2011), not to mention the trenchant critiques of the provisional project such as Anthony McIntyre's work. There's a range of republican political voices such as eirigi which have emerged over the past quarter of a century. To say dissident voices or activity are only nascent is to show your utter ignorance of what's been going on for more than two decades, not to mention the language where nascent refers to the birth and early development of something, so you could say in say 1970 the nascent provos. You couldn't say the same in 1992 without being thought a twat. So why you think you can say the same without having the obvious shortcomings of your claim isn't clear.i think it's because of your gross self-regard and sense of entitlement. Why do you think it is?

I didn't say only nascent though did I?
You have added the word 'only'.
The birth and early development is not the only definition.
A new development on an eternal theme can be described as nascent.
Art as a phenomena is always there, but new movements such as impressionism, or surrealism within art can have a nascent period.
The utterly ignorant person in this conversation is you, with your control freak stalkerish desire to start your own fight in your own vaccum over the use of a word.
Additionally it was a word used in the context of the new circumstances brought about by brexit. You are not interested in that but instead you want to wank yourself into a stupor over a single word.

 

[Pickman's model]

I didn't say only nascent though did I?
You have added the word 'only'.
The birth and early development is not the only definition.
A new development on an eternal theme can be described as nascent.
Art as a phenomena is always there, but new movements such as impressionism, or surrealism within art can have a nascent period.
The utterly ignorant person in this conversation is you, with your control freak stalkerish desire to start your own fight in your own vaccum over the use of a word.
Additionally it was a word used in the context of the new circumstances brought about by brexit. You are not interested in that but instead you want to wank yourself into a stupor over a single word.

I'd have thought if you had an actual case to present, a point to make, you'd be able to do it without resorting to outright lies like claims of me stalking you or showing the paucity of your miserable argument with lurid fantasies of masturbation. Neither republicanism nor loyalism have remained stagnant over the past quarter of a century and I stand by my first response, that if you think this is nascent you've not been paying attention.

 

[brogdale]

The very sunniest of the sunlit uplands are just coming into view...

 

[Pickman's model]

The very sunniest of the sunlit uplands are just coming into view...

View attachment 253228

If you were casting this political equivalent of titanic you'd want gert fröbe to play Boris Johnson

 

[brogdale]

If you were casting this political equivalent of titanic you'd want gert fröbe to play Boris Johnson

Shitfinger

 

[belboid]

how does that work then, surely the ball rises with the water, so the plughole is uncovered

You put a hole in it so it fills with water.

 

[andysays]

you mean the nascent dissident activity in the north of Ireland the much misnamed philosophical referred to? Maybe you're right. But it wouldn't be the birth of such a thing but the rebirth as this article notes Could Brexit bring about the rebirth of a violent dissident loyalist movement? | Northern Slant which outlines the development of dissident loyalism since the gfa

TBH, I'm not interested in getting into a discussion of its nascence or otherwise, just making the point that at least some of it appears to be paramilitaries of a loyalist persuasion.

 

[Pickman's model]

TBH, I'm not interested in getting into a discussion of its nascence or otherwise, just making the point that at least some of it appears to be paramilitaries of a loyalist persuasion.

As you say there've been rumblings from that area

Let's leave the nascents behind

 

[philosophical]

I'd have thought if you had an actual case to present, a point to make, you'd be able to do it without resorting to outright lies like claims of me stalking you or showing the paucity of your miserable argument with lurid fantasies of masturbation. Neither republicanism nor loyalism have remained stagnant over the past quarter of a century and I stand by my first response, that if you think this is nascent you've not been paying attention.

I suppose this represents a step back from your deliberate misrepresentation of what I wrote.
'Only' indeed.
That you want to focus wrongly on a word used, not a word used wrongly, when I was pretty clearly referencing a fresh threat brought about by the brexit vote speaks to your own useless desire to say something, indeed say any old bollocks, not because of what I wrote but that it was me that wrote it.
You are almost the definition of a creepy stalkerish control freak who simply has to try (and fail with) some kind of put down whenever I post anything.
You, with your lurid obsession, is the person in the miserable place.

 

[Pickman's model]

I suppose this represents a step back from your deliberate misrepresentation of what I wrote.
'Only' indeed.
That you want to focus wrongly on a word used, not a word used wrongly, when I was pretty clearly referencing a fresh threat brought about by the brexit vote speaks to your own useless desire to say something, indeed say any old bollocks, not because of what I wrote but that it was me that wrote it.
You are almost the definition of a creepy stalkerish control freak who simply has to try (and fail with) some kind of put down whenever I post anything.
You, with your lurid obsession, is the person in the miserable place.

There's only one of us with a peculiar obsession with the other and he's the one who constantly personalises everything with ad hominems.

 

[TopCat]

I'd have thought if you had an actual case to present, a point to make, you'd be able to do it without resorting to outright lies like claims of me stalking you or showing the paucity of your miserable argument with lurid fantasies of masturbation. Neither republicanism nor loyalism have remained stagnant over the past quarter of a century and I stand by my first response, that if you think this is nascent you've not been paying attention.

Is he out of his bed again?

 

[philosophical]

There's only one of us with a peculiar obsession with the other and he's the one who constantly personalises everything with ad hominems.

More bollocks from you.
The only time I would quote any of the rubbish you write is following your obsessive desire to respond to me when I post anything.
Otherwise you never contribute anything worth bothering with.
And I don't.
You personalise everything with the way you deliberately initiate conflict whenever I write anything.
Creepy.

 

[not-bono-ever]

stop.