The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[ska invita]

I already posted a paper that identified a proportion of the population as being characterised by their representation of Europe as being a worrying cultural force undermining their sense of identity. Again, just because this is nonsense from your own ideological perspective, doesn’t mean that also applies to those who think differently.

wait till they find out they're still in europe, and still europeans!!
pitty the identity crisis

 

[TopCat]

I thought everyone agreed that despite what Johnson said the UK’s vaccine rollout could have progressed exactly the same without brexit. Is that not true?

No it not. Why would you assert everyone has agreed this?

 

[bimble]

No it not. Why would you assert everyone has agreed this?

No it not what ?

Do you think brexit made a difference to the Uk vaccine procurement & rollout?

if you do think that, why?

Joining in their procurement program would have but that was optional wasnt it.

 

[kabbes]

The Brexit racist contingent

wait till they find out they're still in europe, and still europeans!!
pitty the identity crisis

I rest my case

 

[TopCat]

No it not what ?

Do you think brexit made a difference to the Uk vaccine procurement & rollout?

if you do think that, why?

Joining in their procurement program would have but that was optional wasnt it.

No it is not refers to your assertion in the third line of your post.

But joining in with the EU procurement programme was not voluntary for EU countries and would not have been for us. Brexit gave the UK the freedom to enter into procurement arrangements of our own which is why we are so far ahead of the EU in getting our vaccine.

I just got my second shot. Doubt many in the EU have had the second given the woeful numbers receiving the first jab.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sounds suspiciously parallel to the anxieties of Trumpist Americans WHOSE COUNTRY IS BEING STOLEN FROM THEM. At root, while problems and issues may be real enough, the proposed solutions to those problems are something fundamentally to be opposed.

 

[mauvais]

It’s clear to me that the people that laugh at Brexit voters being clueless regarding the benefits of being in Europe are just as clueless about the detriments of being in Europe from the perspective of those they are laughing at. I’d say it’s a case of completely talking past each other but it’s not even that, because they aren’t even sharing a common space to do the talking in.

If it turns out, in the fullness of time, that for our anxious friends the cause of their problems lay elsewhere, and nothing has improved and indeed other things have got worse, then it would be difficult to describe this as better off, wouldn't it?

If I'm tired of my wallpaper and I burn down my house, I imagine I'll experience some fleeting euphoria as it goes, but I'll struggle to file it in the 'win' column.

Ultimately going down this road takes you to the question of whether a feeling is an acceptable substitute for structural consequences.

 

[Raheem]

But joining in with the EU procurement programme was not voluntary for EU countries and would not have been for us.

It was voluntary, just on a point of fact.

 

[kabbes]

Sounds suspiciously parallel to the anxieties of Trumpist Americans WHOSE COUNTRY IS BEING STOLEN FROM THEM. At root, while problems and issues may be real enough, the proposed solutions to those problems are something fundamentally to be opposed.

If it turns out, in the fullness of time, that for our anxious friends the cause of their problems lay elsewhere, and nothing has improved and indeed other things have got worse, then it would be difficult to describe this as better off, wouldn't it?

If I'm tired of my wallpaper and I burn down my house, I imagine I'll experience some fleeting euphoria as it goes, but I'll struggle to file it in the 'win' column.

Ultimately going down this road takes you to the question of whether a feeling is an acceptable substitute for structural consequences.

Quite right. Probably best to keep on guessing motives and assigning your own interpretations and hope that closes the rift. It hasn’t worked so far, but maybe you just need to strawman harder?

 

[TopCat]

Sounds suspiciously parallel to the anxieties of Trumpist Americans WHOSE COUNTRY IS BEING STOLEN FROM THEM. At root, while problems and issues may be real enough, the proposed solutions to those problems are something fundamentally to be opposed.

So brexit supporters are like Trump supporters. Desperate times for the remoaners.

 

[bimble]

joining in with the EU procurement programme was not voluntary for EU countries and would not have been for us. Brexit gave the UK the freedom to enter into procurement arrangements of our own which is why we are so far ahead of the EU in getting our vaccine.

I think this is wrong.

 

[TopCat]

If it turns out, in the fullness of time, that for our anxious friends the cause of their problems lay elsewhere, and nothing has improved and indeed other things have got worse, then it would be difficult to describe this as better off, wouldn't it?

If I'm tired of my wallpaper and I burn down my house, I imagine I'll experience some fleeting euphoria as it goes, but I'll struggle to file it in the 'win' column.

Ultimately going down this road takes you to the question of whether a feeling is an acceptable substitute for structural consequences.

What about countries voting to throw off colonial rule? Doing so made many arguably poorer but this usually didn’t matter to the majority.

 

[TopCat]

I think this is wrong.

View attachment 252588

Who or what are you quoting?

 

[ska invita]

I rest my case

i didnt realise you were so keen for Brexit to be founded in identity politics
crack on

 

[mauvais]

Quite right. Probably best to keep on guessing motives and assigning your own interpretations and hope that closes the rift. It hasn’t worked so far, but maybe you just need to strawman harder?

What's your interpretation based on, exactly?

 

[bimble]

Who or what are you quoting?

Just the first link I found, when asking google if it was voluntary for EU states to join the procurement scheme or not. it was this one.

Covid vaccine decisions have little to do with Brexit | Institute for Government

Brexit isn’t the reason why the UK has managed the feat of becoming the first Western country to approve a Covid vaccine.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Quite right. Probably best to keep on guessing motives and assigning your own interpretations and hope that closes the rift. It hasn’t worked so far, but maybe you just need to strawman harder?

Mine is a political position. For instance, it opposes the scapegoating of immigrants for problems of employment and housing.

What's yours?

 

[TopCat]

Just the first link I found, when asking google if it was voluntary for EU states to join the procurement scheme or not. it was this one.

Covid vaccine decisions have little to do with Brexit | Institute for Government

Brexit isn’t the reason why the UK has managed the feat of becoming the first Western country to approve a Covid vaccine.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk

Did you actually read it?

 

[Artaxerxes]

My choice on the day was "do I want to be stuck on an island where the Conservatives, and to a lesser extent the bland dullness of the other parties, are in charge and allowed to do whatever they fucking want"

The answer to this is still no I do not.


The EU is incompetent and corporate and unaccountable but *waves hand at last year alone on Boris Island *

 

[kabbes]

What's your interpretation based on, exactly?

The various sociopaychological papers I’ve been reading that are trying to get at the answer to the question. I posted a few earlier but there’s a lot more out there — the social drivers of Brexit has been quite a hot topic, you know.

 

[bimble]

Did you actually read it?

Are you ok? The thing we are arguing about is a point of fact. You said EU countries had no choice had to join in the joint procurement scheme. That’s not right is it.

 

[kabbes]

i didnt realise you were so keen for Brexit to be founded in identity politics
crack on

My statements have had nothing to do with identity politics. Understanding the identity drivers of people’s behaviour is not endorsing a politics based on those identities.

 

[mojo pixy]

"do I want to be stuck on an island where the Conservatives, and to a lesser extent the bland dullness of the other parties, are in charge and allowed to do whatever they fucking want"

The answer to this is still no I do not.

What should we do about that, comrade?

(Assuming the EU doesn't care about the UK being run indefinitely tories, which I think is a fairly safe bet)

 

[TopCat]

Are you ok? The thing we are arguing about is a point of fact. You said EU countries had no choice had to join in the joint procurement scheme. That’s not right is it.

When Hungary said they were getting the Sputnik vaccine did they get a cheer from the EU?

 

[Artaxerxes]

What should we do about that, comrade?

(Assuming the EU doesn't care about the UK being run indefinitely the Tories, which I think is a fairly safe bet)

Emigrate.

 

[TopCat]

Are you ok? The thing we are arguing about is a point of fact. You said EU countries had no choice had to join in the joint procurement scheme. That’s not right is it.

How many opted out?

 

[bimble]

When Hungary said they were getting the Sputnik vaccine did they get a cheer from the EU?

A cheer ? What’s that got to do with anything.
It’s ok you know to just say, thanks I was mistaken, it was voluntary.

 

[kabbes]

Mine is a political position. For instance, it opposes the scapegoating of immigrants for problems of employment and housing.

What's yours?

My position on what? I’m not stating a position. I’m trying to understand what drove people to vote for Brexit and thus what benefit they may feel they derive from the post-Brexit situation. You seemingly have no interest at all in that question.

 

[TopCat]

A cheer ? What’s that got to do with anything.
It’s ok you know to just say, thanks I was mistaken.

After you.

 

[TopCat]

How many opted out?

Answer bimble?