TopCat
Putin fanboy
The poor wee lambs didn't know the full story when they were allowed to have a say.
Thank goodness they got a proper peoples vote later.
The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion
- Thread starter brogdale
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Thank goodness they got a proper peoples vote later.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Gobsmacked to find out that the USA is the biggest importer of EU wine . Wonder what the tariffs on that are ?
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
And didn't it happen Twice? (once on Nice, once on Lisbon IIRC)
Not to mention the French being wrong in 2005.
And wasn't a Danish referendum also .. not overturned but .. snuck around, at best.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Can’t remember the exact words but Giscard in advising the Irish govt said something like the changes needed to be hidden in some long document so that they were impenetrable to the public
philosophical
Well-Known Member
This is a reading about why the second votes had a different outcome from the first in Denmark and Ireland.
It discusses strategic changes in the campaigns.
There is a theme within the article that seems to be about the impact of the emphasis of different bits of information.
Now in the UK, the broad dismissal with a soundbite (we've had enough of experts) of one aspect of the debate looks like it prevailed.
Had expert and detailed challenge to the 'No' campaign been more to the fore, the vote might have been different. Interestingly it was after the referendum result that a lot of people were saying they didn't feel they had enough information, and indeed the day after the vote wasn't a leading Google question 'What is the EU?'?
Anyway here it is and the Danish and Irish situation don't come over as a population simply being bullied or threatened.
blogs.lse.ac.uk
It discusses strategic changes in the campaigns.
There is a theme within the article that seems to be about the impact of the emphasis of different bits of information.
Now in the UK, the broad dismissal with a soundbite (we've had enough of experts) of one aspect of the debate looks like it prevailed.
Had expert and detailed challenge to the 'No' campaign been more to the fore, the vote might have been different. Interestingly it was after the referendum result that a lot of people were saying they didn't feel they had enough information, and indeed the day after the vote wasn't a leading Google question 'What is the EU?'?
Anyway here it is and the Danish and Irish situation don't come over as a population simply being bullied or threatened.
Asking the public twice: why do voters change their minds in second referendums on EU treaties?
On three occasions – Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty – voters have initially rejected an EU treaty only to vote in favour of it i…
blogs.lse.ac.uk
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
The Article said:
I think the article doesn't really support your statement - but anyway the main issue wasn't as I remember bullying or threats, it's just .. ignoring the result.
In France the 2005 referendum result was openly ignored and this is still creating demand within France for their own referendum on membership.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Absolutely , its the hallmark of democracy that if you don't get the right result get better voter insight, a better marketing agency and try, try again. Either that or restrict or expand the vote to those that vote the right way.This is a reading about why the second votes had a different outcome from the first in Denmark and Ireland.
It discusses strategic changes in the campaigns.
There is a theme within the article that seems to be about the impact of the emphasis of different bits of information.
Now in the UK, the broad dismissal with a soundbite (we've had enough of experts) of one aspect of the debate looks like it prevailed.
Had expert and detailed challenge to the 'No' campaign been more to the fore, the vote might have been different. Interestingly it was after the referendum result that a lot of people were saying they didn't feel they had enough information, and indeed the day after the vote wasn't a leading Google question 'What is the EU?'?
Anyway here it is and the Danish and Irish situation don't come over as a population simply being bullied or threatened.
Asking the public twice: why do voters change their minds in second referendums on EU treaties?
On three occasions – Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty – voters have initially rejected an EU treaty only to vote in favour of it i…
mauvais
on reddit or something
The bill for Boris Johnson’s Brexit is coming in and it’s punishingly steep | Brexit | The Guardian
Ministers say it is just teething trouble. To many businesses it feels more like root canal surgery without the benefit of anaesthetic
TopCat
Putin fanboy
If the remoaner tag fits, Andrew wears it.The bill for Boris Johnson’s Brexit is coming in and it’s punishingly steep | Brexit | The Guardian
Ministers say it is just teething trouble. To many businesses it feels more like root canal surgery without the benefit of anaestheticamp.theguardian.com
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Even without that tagline, the rest of that website is worth a visit. Clearly it was written by someone who is cheesed off.
teqniq
DisMembered
Play the man not the ball eh? Nothing to say about the substance of the article?
To be clear as I've said before I abstained in the referendum vote because whilst I was persuaded by some of the Lexit arguements I felt the whole Berxit project was being steered by ideology, xenophobia/racisism and internal struggles that the vermin were having and wasn't really in the wider publlic interest. so what are your actual thoughts on the effect this is having on businesses particularly the smaller ones as described above rather than Rawnsley himself?
Gardeners snagged by farcical new Irish Sea border rule as British soil is banned from Northern Ireland because of Brexit – and harmful peat is promoted
The Irish Sea border has led to a ban on even tiny quantities of British soil being brought into Northern Ireland and is perversely incentivising the destruction of the environment, the owner of a major garden centre has warned.
www.newsletter.co.uk
TopCat
Putin fanboy
This is akin to me posting an article by Rees mogg and demanding you comment on his hyperbole, straw men and basic bullshit.
Smangus
comatose at a desk
You embrace the language of the divide they created to keep us chained.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Yeah well I was more constructive a few years ago until these ugly heads reared up, disdainful of any democracy that led to a result not of their likeing.
ska invita
back on the other side
I agree with the Localism plus Interntionalism sentiment, but in fact Brexit may deliver that by breaking up the Union... That seems key to creating deeper localism. It could have happened within the Union, theoretically, but Westminster is too all-powerful and the Tories too dominant.
Internationalism is always an option, but requires socialist-minded forces in power, not membership of the EU.
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ska invita
back on the other side
The problem with holding up Greece in these arguments is that Greeks continue to want to stay in, because the memory of the tyranny of being outside it is that strong.
Thinking back to the daily rioting and poverty at the height of the crisis, that is quite extraordinary.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
It even has a page of Valentine's poems
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Scottish Indy is another good example of a question in which how something is done and when it is done affects whether or not you should support it. I would have opposed it in the last ref if I were Scottish. It didn't represent anything progressive imo and there was a real danger of an 'independent' Scotland being as dependent on rUK as ever but with less voice, bit like the danger there is to the UK from brexit. But I reckon I'd be voting for independence now. There's nothing in the shitshow that is the UK that is worth clinging on to, and an outward-looking independent Scotland would be more internationalist.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There are, I think if I'm counting correctly, 13 members of the EU with dictatorship in living memory.
Smangus
comatose at a desk
Understandable, if disappointing to see they have dragged you down to their level.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Thats interesting , show us your list.
ska invita
back on the other side
with forty straight years of right wing governments in the UK, when is a good time for anything but now?
(crap rhetorical question: there is always the danger things can get a lot worse, that could include scottish independence too)
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Fair enough. Most on here who voted leave cant be bothered by remain tantrums any more. There is no good will left.
I will like them move on and leave those dreaming of a greater EU to wallow in their own bile.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I always thought that the holding up of Greece as an example was about showing how the EU works in practice rather than the national psyche of the countries that are being sanctioned.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
democracy? we don't have no stinking democracy!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Portugal
Spain
Greece
Hungary
Bulgaria
Romania
Poland
Latvia
Estonia
Lithuania
Czechia
Slovakia
(East Germany)
That's 12 plus East Germany
Arguable, I guess, about what Yugoslavia was, dictatorship-wise, so dunno whether to include Slovenia and Croatia.
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