The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[mauvais]

The thing called "Brexit" is their thing, but that's not enough to convince me that quitting the EU as a political move is in itself a bad idea.
Recall that was always Comrade Corbyn's idea too - right up till he had to stand by it and found he couldn't.

'In itself' is not a thing though, is it? It always belongs to somebody.

Quitting the EU could potentially have been a good thing if:

• the EU was outpacing the unchecked ambitions of the domestic government, or
• there was a strong likelihood that the domestic government would be brought to an end and an exit would offer novel positive possibilities thereafter, or
• there was a realistic possibility that it would destroy the EU and produce a net positive in its absence, regardless of the effects on the exiting party

These things were and are not true. There is not even anything going on at the meta level - not even IMO the slightest hope of making the second one happen. We live in a miserable country with a public that outright supports both doing a bad job and making things worse, and I struggle to see how this is going to substantially change in my remaining lifetime.

I think much of the stupid stuff that has happened will eventually be unfucked in its detail by the inevitability of the world it exists within, but nothing will have been won, and much will have been both suffered and conceded.

 

[Pickman's model]

Lembit is still an MP?

no he has left the building

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Case of being careful what you wish for re destroying the EU without a concrete plan for how to replace it. Increased international cooperation, involving increased pooling of sovereignty, is the only real hope for creating the changes we need to survive. A move of power away from the 'Westminster' level, if anything, not towards it. Away from it both upwards and downwards. Internationalism partnered with localism.

The 'Take Back Control' slogan was wrongheaded on several levels.

 

[Duncan2]

There is always the possibility of the domestic Government being brought to an end.If/when the 17.5 million Brexiteers find that they have been sold a pup that their Government has promised things which they are unable/unwilling to deliver it is entirely possible that they could turn on that Government and vote in another.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There is always the possibility of the domestic Government being brought to an end.If/when the 17.5 million Brexiteers find that they have been sold a pup that their Government has promised things which they are unable/unwilling to deliver it is entirely possible that they could turn on that Government and vote in another.

In four years' time. A lot of damage will have been done by then.

And I still wouldn't bet on it. The Tories can ditch Johnson and struggle on, 'fixing' brexit. Renewing themselves mid-term and clinging to power is something they're very good at.

Scotland may well secede and even that probably wouldn't stop people voting Tory. 9k a year tuition fees haven't stopped them after all.

 

[TopCat]

Case of being careful what you wish for re destroying the EU without a concrete plan for how to replace it. Increased international cooperation, involving increased pooling of sovereignty, is the only real hope for creating the changes we need to survive. A move of power away from the 'Westminster' level, if anything, not towards it. Away from it both upwards and downwards. Internationalism partnered with localism.

The 'Take Back Control' slogan was wrongheaded on several levels.

Well thankfully your viewpoint lost.

 

[TopCat]

There's a winery in Abergavenny and I've heard their wine is good though I've never had any.

Still, grapes are just one wine fruit. I'd like to see other fruit wines become more available. Plum. Cherry. Blackberry. Oh yes.

Ferment for victory.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Well thankfully your viewpoint lost.

Our viewpoints were never consulted. Much too risky.

 

[TopCat]

Our viewpoints were never consulted. Much too risky.

You got asked the same question.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

You got asked the same question.

Answering yes or no to someone else's random question takes no account of my viewpoint on anything.

 

[TopCat]

Answering yes or no to someone else's random question takes no account of my viewpoint on anything.

I'm shocked.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If anyone is happy to spunk more than a tenner on a bottle of wine I would humbly suggest getting one from Oregon or a British wine from the Surrey Hills, Albury and Chilworth are better than anything I have ever had from France...

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I'm shocked.

You get used to it.

 

[TopCat]

If anyone is happy to spunk more than a tenner on a bottle of wine I would humbly suggest getting one from Oregon or a British wine from the Surrey Hills, Albury and Chilworth are better than anything I have ever had from France...

We may have issues with red wine. I dont think any UK producer has ever put anything out for sale.
I think a few non eu countries make a decent red though. Should be ok.

 

[mauvais]

There is always the possibility of the domestic Government being brought to an end.If/when the 17.5 million Brexiteers find that they have been sold a pup that their Government has promised things which they are unable/unwilling to deliver it is entirely possible that they could turn on that Government and vote in another.

The particular administration may or may not end as a result of its recent doings - personally my prediction is towards 'not' - but there is very little prospect of a structural change in power or ideology.

 

[mojo pixy]

'In itself' is not a thing though, is it? It always belongs to somebody.

That's a fair point.

But it's always worth recalling though that the idea of leaving the EU has always had more than one set of proponents. At the very least it's a way of finding unity - particularly as the liars' lies become more and more glaring and harmful and some people start to feel shafted. Being out of the EU would not be a bad position to be in, if we could just deal with the actual problem. If enough people do start to feel shafted .. or hungry, homeless, scared .. who the fuck knows what might transpire. But we'll still be out of the EU and by that point it might become an actual advantage. I don't know how, but I know when Greece fell the EU gave it a good kicking. So at least that won't happen, whatever else does happen.

 

[mojo pixy]

plus now we can drink more than just one goddamn litre
ahem
two pints, "merci beaucoup"



so there's
hic

that

 

[mauvais]

The trouble with that is threefold: we are not well positioned to deal with the actual problem, the people responsible for the actual problem have been further empowered as a result, and it's hard to see what prevented the action of Brexit from being carried out at some future point when it could/would have been of actual benefit.

 

[mojo pixy]

The trouble with that is threefold: we are not well positioned to deal with the actual problem, the people responsible for the actual problem have been further empowered as a result, and it's hard to see what prevented the action of Brexit from being carried out at some future point when it could/would have been of actual benefit.

I agree 100%.
And yet, here we are.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's a fair point.

But it's always worth recalling though that the idea of leaving the EU has always had more than one set of proponents. At the very least it's a way of finding unity - particularly as the liars' lies become more and more glaring and harmful and some people start to feel shafted. Being out of the EU would not be a bad position to be in, if we could just deal with the actual problem. If enough people do start to feel shafted .. or hungry, homeless, scared .. who the fuck knows what might transpire. But we'll still be out of the EU and by that point it might become an actual advantage. I don't know how, but I know when Greece fell the EU gave it a good kicking. So at least that won't happen, whatever else does happen.

I don't want to excuse or minimise what was done to Greece, but there was never a chance of anything similar happening to the UK with its semi-detatched membership.

That's not exactly a strong argument for remaining, of course, but there are flip sides to it. It's simplistic to think of EU membership as all bad. The initial sharing out of the covid vaccine, which may go tits up in the end, was at least an attempt at equity across the union. The UK government shamelessly attempted to bully the Irish government. The EU stood by Ireland. Things like no capital punishment and gay rights are guaranteed across the union, and yes, the mechanisms aren't as strong as they could be, while there's work to be done on reproductive rights, and there are abuses by the likes of Hungary and Poland atm, but it is a good aspiration and aim to establish basic fundamental rights, and that project hasn't been totally unsuccessful. Far from it. Russia's current laws would be against EU laws. Thatcher's Clause 28 would have been against EU laws.

 

[Duncan2]

The particular administration may or may not end as a result of its recent doings - personally my prediction is towards 'not' - but there is very little prospect of a structural change in power or ideology.

That may very well be so but a large number of fairly desperate workers decided that voting for "no change" was not likely to help in this regard.

 

[Duncan2]

Just on the vaccine-couldn't help noticing that Hungary are getting in the Sputnik vaccine which has not been approved for use by the relevant EU body and a row has erupted because Germany are being accused ( by France) of seeking to hoard extra consignments of vaccine for their own use.You could look at this as exceptional misbehaviour which proves the general rule but.....Overall things not going well.

 

[Raheem]

plus now we can drink more than just one goddamn litre
ahem
two pints, "merci beaucoup"

View attachment 251160

so there's
hic

that

That's about 90 units per week!

(The NHS recommended amount is 14.)

 

[TopCat]

I don't want to excuse or minimise what was done to Greece, but there was never a chance of anything similar happening to the UK with its semi-detatched membership.

That's not exactly a strong argument for remaining, of course, but there are flip sides to it. It's simplistic to think of EU membership as all bad. The initial sharing out of the covid vaccine, which may go tits up in the end, was at least an attempt at equity across the union. The UK government shamelessly attempted to bully the Irish government. The EU stood by Ireland. Things like no capital punishment and gay rights are guaranteed across the union, and yes, the mechanisms aren't as strong as they could be, while there's work to be done on reproductive rights, and there are abuses by the likes of Hungary and Poland atm, but it is a good aspiration and aim to establish basic fundamental rights, and that project hasn't been totally unsuccessful. Far from it. Russia's current laws would be against EU laws. Thatcher's Clause 28 would have been against EU laws.

Just for posterity.

 

[mojo pixy]

The EU stood by Ireland.

Not for Ireland's benefit, I suspect.

Things like no capital punishment and gay rights are guaranteed across the union, and yes, the mechanisms aren't as strong as they could be, while there's work to be done on reproductive rights, and there are abuses by the likes of Hungary and Poland atm, but it is a good aspiration and aim to establish basic fundamental rights, and that project hasn't been totally unsuccessful. Far from it. Russia's current laws would be against EU laws. Thatcher's Clause 28 would have been against EU laws.

The EU isn't as bad as Russia. Or Thatcher.
As endorsements go I must admit, I have seen better.

 

[The39thStep]

"It'd take a lot to turn me against Brexit," says expat who retired to an EU country before Brexit.

This post had played on my mind a bit today tbh . I think it’s missing an opportunity as you never know who reads posts on here . How about a quick redraft and inserting somewhere ‘former child model’ or ‘charming and witty ‘ or ‘sophisticated and handsome ‘ . Don’t want it over egged or anything but at present it’s brief , and don’t get me wrong there’s some merit in that , but it’s understated . Pm me some drafts and I’ll give them the once over .

 

[mojo pixy]

That's about 90 units per week!

(The NHS recommended amount is 14.)

 

[two sheds]

I think that's a very sensible limit, it doesn't mention the allowed amount of port or rum that normally follows it down though.

 

[mojo pixy]

and obviously champagne doesn't count anyway.

 

[The39thStep]

Just for posterity.

Stood by Ireland? Ah yes the second referendum after Ireland voted no in the first .