Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
.
The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Perhaps you can explain why you believe Hitler wasn't a dictator. Or maybe he was, but not in western Germany and not in austria
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Think you are stretching living memory there tbh
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Even now there are people who can remember Germany in the 1930s and '40s eg kissinger.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Oh: and Benito Mussolini's Italy a conspicuous absentee
ska invita
back on the other side
Both aspects are relevant
They fear what it would be to be outside the EU....some people in Britain fear that too
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Think for Greece, it's more the memory of a weak currency than anything else, though.
bimble
floofy
But you won and brexit is happening. I don’t get what the point is of calling people remoaners seeing as we are all in brexitland now.
Expecting everyone to be enthusiastic about the results is a tall order tho seeing as lots of people who voted leave seem to be moaning the loudest lately.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Have I read your posts correctly? 'Greeks continue to want to stay in, because the memory of the tyranny of being outside it is that strong.' refers to the military dictatorship-yes?
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
What about Vichy France? And all of Nazi occupied Europe?
Smangus
comatose at a desk
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
quite so. i'd suggest you approach littlebabyjesus but all you'd get would be 30 yards of liberal flannel
teqniq
DisMembered
Straw men and basic bullshit? He describes real world problems being experienced by real people, nothing to say then.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I restricted the idea of 'living memory' to the 1970s onwards. I don't think that's particularly unreasonable (especially as the list is unchanged if you extend it to the 1950s), and more to the point, a version of the EU already existed at the time that these dictatorships existed. That matters a lot when you think about what joining the EU meant in those countries, which all joined not many years after the fall of their dictatorships.
Pickman's model is just taking the opportunity to be a cunt.
Last edited:
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
Mastercard to push up fees for UK purchases from EU
The move sparks concerns that customers could see prices rise if merchants pass on the higher cost.
www.bbc.com
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
if you say 'living memory' you're generally taken to mean events which can be recalled by living people. and the 1930s and '40s fall within this. if you choose to mean a different thing by this commonly understood phrase then it'd be only polite to say so on first usage. unless you're a cunt.
but given that germany joined the european steel and coal community and the european economic community - both precursors to the eu - 6 and 12 years respectively after the fall of the third reich, which is fewer than the 13 years which elapsed between estonian independence and their accession to the eu, your second point rather a fail too.
Last edited:
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh let's not worry about them on this thread, we try to strike a happy medium here
Raheem
Well-Known Member
If we do that, the medium won't be happy for long.
(ETA: even I can recognise this is poor)
Last edited:
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i don't think they'd be happy for long here anyway, with the great scepticism many here have for that sort of thing
philosophical
Well-Known Member
The referendum was a version of democracy as all 'democracies' are.
It was not the paradigm version, so pure and wonderful against which all other versions are measured. In the Scottish Independence referendum 16 year olds were allowed to vote but not in the EU referendum. The argument that brexit should happen because it was so democratic has weaknesses, as is the argument that the result of the referendum has been honoured given the different rules now for part of the UK.
It was not the paradigm version, so pure and wonderful against which all other versions are measured. In the Scottish Independence referendum 16 year olds were allowed to vote but not in the EU referendum. The argument that brexit should happen because it was so democratic has weaknesses, as is the argument that the result of the referendum has been honoured given the different rules now for part of the UK.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
What did joining the EU mean to those countries who joined not many years after the fall of their dictatorships?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I will speak for Spain as it's a country I know, and I was there around the time it joined the EU. In the 1980s, with memory of Franco and also the 1981 failed coup very fresh, joining the EU signalled the success of the transition to democracy, and it was widely supported for symbolic reasons as much as practical ones. Membership has never quite had that kind of resonance here - it's never been felt to be something needed for its guarantees against domestic tyranny.
(I was there, btw, on a school exchange, not coincidentally the first one from my school to Spain. That was also something that had far more significance to the town I was going to than to mine, which took such things rather for granted - we were given a formal reception by the local mayor.)
Last edited:
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Yes I think Spain may have differences with both Portugal and Greece experience although for all it was primarily a desire for what they saw as financial reward in terms of EU monies and full trade. Spain under Franco had had very limited access to the EC as it was then. The 1970 Preferential Agreement effectively said you can join but you've got to become more democratic and in some ways that helped sections of Spanish capital who felt that the regime now had reached a point where it was restricting the growth that Sapin had experienced 1950-mid 70s. Post Franco sections of their ruling class who feared that Franco’s death might lead to a violent overturning of the established socio-economic order came to regard the EC as an external wall of containment against possible revolutionary excesses especially the legal protection against confiscation of property.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Perhaps it was different in Portugal, which had a more definitive revolutionary moment, but I've spoken to people who lived through the Franco years and the transition years, and while there was enormous relief and celebration when he died, there was no sense of certainty that his death would mean a peaceful transition to something better. 'todo atado y bien atado' is what Franco believed on his death bed - everything all tied up. He was wrong, of course, but there was no sense of inevitability that he would be proved wrong at the time. Everything felt extremely precarious for some years.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
spain joined the eu in 1993, seven years after joining the eec
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I agree with what you are saying .
If you think about it that period in broader terms it was one of precariousness and uncertainty for the both European capital and and American intersts in Southern Europe. you had the post Franco situation , the Portuguese Revolution, Greece withdrawing from NATO and the threat of the Communist Party becoming the government in Italy. it may well have been that the EC positioned itself as a third way to many.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Sure. One more thing about Spain, while I don't think you can call the Spanish Civil War within living memory now - any surviving combatants will be over 100 - it certainly was in the 1970s. Indeed all they'd known was Franco since the civil war. The scale of the horror of that war and the brutal years that followed it, and their long-term effects, shouldn't be underestimated.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
And Dolphuss in Austria + Nazi annexation. Also, Norway is in the EEA and they had that Mr Quisling chap.
Similar threads
- Poll
