The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[prunus]

Your post epitomizes the sneery arsed hard line remainer attitude shown throughout this thread.

These attitudes would need to change a lot.

Why? Why would the attitude that a mistake should be recognised as a mistake have to change at all, let alone a lot? Surely the recognition that it’s a mistake is the first step to rolling it back?

Also, I am perfectly happy to fully own a dismissive attitude to the view that anything is a good idea simply because it annoys the liberal left and regardless of any other consequences. Please explain why I should consider a tolerant and inclusive attitude towards what is fundamentally a position fuelled by hatred of what is a fundamentally good group of people?

For clarity - I absolutely understand the desperation underlying many people’s grasping of this as a change, given that a change from the prevailing politics in this country is desperately needed to reduce inequality and make a fairer and better society for everyone living in it. I, and the liberal left of which group I would be happy to describe myself, want exactly this change, have spent all my (political) life voting and occasionally campaigning for such change. Brexit is not the right change. It’s change in the opposite direction. If the liberal left is one’s enemy I think one has to examine what side one is accidentally fighting for.

Just because a massive change is desperately needed, and Brexit is a massive change, doesn’t mean that the latter fulfils the need for the former and should be defended at all costs.

*edited to remove unnecessary emotive word

 

[bimble]

Your post epitomizes the sneery arsed hard line remainer attitude shown throughout this thread.

These attitudes would need to change a lot.

Did you vote brexit out of a sort of spite? Or is that a mad suggestion .

 

[TopCat]

Did you vote brexit out of a sort of spite? Or is that a mad suggestion .

Spiting capital.

 

[gosub]

One of the more compelling arguments was about the risk of a democratic deficit following the referendum vote.
The weird thing is those in favour of brexit seem to think the vote has been honoured, but to me the different treatment of Northern Ireland means that the democratic deficit remains and the vote has not been honoured.
So the argument regarding the will of the people has come up against practical reality, and in my view lost.
Beyond that brexit remains chite with no redeeming features whatsoever, unless winners sneering at the losers counts as a redeeming feature.

 

[brogdale]

Spiting capital.

Spliting?

 

[inva]

People who still support brexit on here: what set of circumstances or kind of thing could come to pass that would make you change your mind about brexit being a good idea? I am genuinely interested.

Is this kind of thing enough?

Move to EU to avoid Brexit costs, firms told

No, I don't care that small businesses are being advised by the department of international trade on how to get around cross border trade problems and I doubt anyone else who voted leave does either. I don't think where businesses are registered rated very highly in peoples reasons for voting.

I don't know it seems strange to me in the middle of a global pandemic with who knows what consequences for our jobs and living standards (already devastating for many) and where there's a national campaign over getting kids fed, for remainers to imagine stuff like this or price rises for bottles of wine ("the impact of leaving becoming ever more clear" as the Guardian puts it referring to up to £1.50 on a £12 bottle) or whatever would be anyone's final straw.

 

[prunus]

No, I don't care that small businesses are being advised by the department of international trade on how to get around cross border trade problems and I doubt anyone else who voted leave does either. I don't think where businesses are registered rated very highly in peoples reasons for voting.

I don't know it seems strange to me in the middle of a global pandemic with who knows what consequences for our jobs and living standards (already devastating for many) and where there's a national campaign over getting kids fed, for remainers to imagine stuff like this or price rises for bottles of wine ("the impact of leaving becoming ever more clear" as the Guardian puts it referring to up to £1.50 on a £12 bottle) or whatever would be anyone's final straw.

It’s not just a case of setting up shell companies, it’s moving and/or setting up entire distribution operations inside the EU - ie jobs and revenues that could have stayed here in the UK going abroad. Jobs in small and medium sized businesses that make up the majority of the economy in this country. Do you really not care about this?

 

[Roadkill]

I don't know it seems strange to me in the middle of a global pandemic with who knows what consequences for our jobs and living standards (already devastating for many) and where there's a national campaign over getting kids fed, for remainers to imagine stuff like this or price rises for bottles of wine ("the impact of leaving becoming ever more clear" as the Guardian puts it referring to up to £1.50 on a £12 bottle) or whatever would be anyone's final straw.

Price rises either are or are likely to go well beyond expensive wine, though, and that's going to be no help at all to those struggling to feed their kids.

 

[inva]

It’s not just a case of setting up shell companies, it’s moving and/or setting up entire distribution operations inside the EU - ie jobs and revenues that could have stayed here in the UK going abroad. Jobs in small and medium sized businesses that make up the majority of the economy in this country. Do you really not care about this?

I care about people losing their jobs, but no these kind of arrangements for companies operating across continent don't make me reconsider my vote in the referendum.

 

[inva]

Price rises either are or are likely to go well beyond expensive wine, though, and that's going to be no help at all to those struggling to feed their kids.

I was only going by what was in the article and wine was what the Guardian thought most decisive I suppose.

 

[prunus]

I care about people losing their jobs, but no these kind of arrangements for companies operating across continent don't make me reconsider my vote in the referendum.

Ok fair enough, you don’t consider people losing their jobs a sufficient downside as to make you reconsider. It was only a (current) suggestion of the the kind of thing that I thought might - but to return to the original question: what kind of thing would make you reconsider?

 

[Badgers]

Now I am on the inside of this can confirm 100% it is a mess beyond what is reported

 

[Duncan2]

Ok fair enough, you don’t consider people losing their jobs a sufficient downside as to make you reconsider. It was only a (current) suggestion of the the kind of thing that I thought might - but to return to the original question: what kind of thing would make you reconsider?

In the fulness of time its entirely possible that very many of those of us who voted for Brexit will find cause to "reconsider".And then again maybe not.Are not these recriminations a little premature a few short weeks after implementation and,as Inva mentioned,in the middle of a global pandemic?

 

[Roadkill]

I was only going by what was in the article and wine was what the Guardian thought most decisive I suppose.

The Guardian's reporting it because a wine merchant has been very vocal about it on Twitter, but it isn't just wine. The UK imports about a quarter of its food from the EU so inevitably some things are going to get more costly. The logistical and administrative problems aren't going to help either. And it's not only food: I bought a bit of electrical equipment the other day, checked the manufacturer's website for something, and they're currently not importing to the UK. Doubtless with a bit of digging about I could find a lot more examples of things that are or are going to become a lot scarcer and probably a lot more expensive.

Couple that with a probable wave of redundancies in firms that are now struggling to get goods and services into Europe and things are about to get quite a lot shitter for a lot of people. It'd be nice if those Lexiters who haven't had the good sense to go quiet could explain how that can be a good thing, especially under a Tory government with an 80-seat majority.

 

[inva]

Ok fair enough, you don’t consider people losing their jobs a sufficient downside as to make you reconsider. It was only a (current) suggestion of the the kind of thing that I thought might - but to return to the original question: what kind of thing would make you reconsider?

Like I think most people who voted to leave, my vote was more based on the nature of the EU than specific trade arrangements of UK businesses or the UK state.
On that basis, maybe a feasible mechanism for drastically reforming the EU in a progressive direction but that seems so unrealistic it would be virtually the same as saying nothing would.

Job losses and price rises are not inevitable consequences of a neutral capitalist market, both can be avoided and defended against. The school meals campaign is a good example of how during a crisis we can fight to protect each other.

 

[Roadkill]

Like I think most people who voted to leave, my vote was more based on the nature of the EU than specific trade arrangements of UK businesses or the UK state.
On that basis, maybe a feasible mechanism for drastically reforming the EU in a progressive direction but that seems so unrealistic it would be virtually the same as saying nothing would.

Job losses and price rises are not inevitable consequences of a neutral capitalist market, both can be avoided and defended against. The school meals campaign is a good example of how during a crisis we can fight to protect each other.

Meanwhile in the real world...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It would be front page of every newspaper every day atm without the pandemic. I just had a little scroll down the front page of the BBC website, and there is not a single mention of any brexit problems anywhere. Rather convenient, one might think, for the government.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Like I think most people who voted to leave, my vote was more based on the nature of the EU than specific trade arrangements of UK businesses or the UK state.
On that basis, maybe a feasible mechanism for drastically reforming the EU in a progressive direction but that seems so unrealistic it would be virtually the same as saying nothing would.

Job losses and price rises are not inevitable consequences of a neutral capitalist market, both can be avoided and defended against. The school meals campaign is a good example of how during a crisis we can fight to protect each other.

Sorry but I think that's way off the mark in terms of why most other people voted brexit. Immigration was the single most cited concern in surveys. 'The EU isn't progressive enough' was a minority motivation.

 

[inva]

Sorry but I think that's way off the mark in terms of why most other people voted brexit. Immigration was the single most cited concern in surveys. 'The EU isn't progressive enough' was a minority motivation.

I never mentioned anything about people saying the EU isn't progressive enough, I meant peoples vote was more about rejecting what the EU is/represents. I think that's correct - loss of control (including over immigration), undemocratic. They were the major reasons I saw cited from what I remember.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I never mentioned anything about people saying the EU isn't progressive enough, I meant peoples vote was more about rejecting what the EU is/represents. I think that's correct - loss of control (including over immigration), undemocratic. They were the major reasons I saw cited from what I remember.

So which bits of the nature of the EU as manifested in the UK do you see being changed by brexit, and is this in the progressive direction you would want? If no, it's in a direction the opposite way from what you would want, would you still think brexit was a good thing? Isn't that just punching yourself in the face?

Joe Biden is a centrist neoliberal, but that doesn't mean he isn't better than Trump.

 

[Duncan2]

Sorry but I think that's way off the mark in terms of why most other people voted brexit. Immigration was the single most cited concern in surveys. 'The EU isn't progressive enough' was a minority motivation.

And of course (as was mentioned ad nauseam last year) the EU itself is somewhat less progressive when it comes to African migration.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

peoples vote was more about rejecting what the EU is/represents.

As for this bit, well yes, of course. Why else would people vote to leave the EU? That's not really saying anything. But what it is about the EU that they reject matters here, and what it is being offered as an alternative also matters. Hence the rightward lurch the country is taking - it was those rejecting the EU from a nationalist perspective whose views are being pandered to.

 

[inva]

As for this bit, well yes, of course. Why else would people vote to leave the EU? That's not really saying anything. But what it is about the EU that they reject matters here, and what it is being offered as an alternative also matters. Hence the rightward lurch the country is taking - it was those rejecting the EU from a nationalist perspective whose views are being pandered to.

'Yes of course' but you said I argued something different? I was responding to a post saying that the cross border trade arrangements mentioned in a Guardian article might be a reason I'd reconsider my vote so I was explaining why it wasn't.

If you want yet another argument about why people including me voted to leave I might pick it up at some point but tbh can't be bothered to go over it all again now, there's already threads and threads on it. And anyway it's not really on topic here.

 

[mojo pixy]

You can’t separate the two, brexit means farage and Rees-mogg and Johnson. It’s their thing.

The thing called "Brexit" is their thing, but that's not enough to convince me that quitting the EU as a political move is in itself a bad idea.
Recall that was always Comrade Corbyn's idea too - right up till he had to stand by it and found he couldn't.

 

[mojo pixy]

There's a winery in Abergavenny and I've heard their wine is good though I've never had any.

Still, grapes are just one wine fruit. I'd like to see other fruit wines become more available. Plum. Cherry. Blackberry. Oh yes.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I never mentioned anything about people saying the EU isn't progressive enough, I meant peoples vote was more about rejecting what the EU is/represents. I think that's correct - loss of control (including over immigration), undemocratic. They were the major reasons I saw cited from what I remember.

My vote counts the same as it did before brexit, nowt. Do people think the government will be more accountable now or have the tools to make a difference ? . They’ve had to be shamed into feeding kids...

 

[Duncan2]

My vote counts the same as it did before brexit, nowt. Do people think the government will be more accountable now or have the tools to make a difference ? . They’ve had to be shamed into feeding kids...

If they are indeed capable of being shamed into doing things then that in itself perhaps a very small but nevertheless positive sign?

 

[sleaterkinney]

If they are indeed capable of being shamed into doing things then that in itself perhaps a very small but nevertheless positive sign?

I mean they have the money to spend on ppe contracts for their mates etc, they choose not to spend it on feeding kids, how has brexit made any difference there?

 

[Duncan2]

And I was just venturing to suggest that it would be vain to attempt to "shame" the EU Commission into doing or not doing anything they see fit to do or not do.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Tbh if I were pro-Brexit, current events wouldn't change my mind - unless I had made that decision based on the idea that the current government were in the slightest competent, and I wouldn't insult anyone by implying they believed that. I think it was guaranteed from the start that the transition would be a fuckup.