The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[Artaxerxes]

The political benefits

Can you summarise? Bullet points preferred.

 

[TopCat]

That’s absolutely fair enough, of course.

What are the political benefits you see?

There is another thread just started for sensible questions and discussion on that topic.
This thread is more a constant redredging of shit and general fling it about sort of thing.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I've a simple question.

In practical, everyday, terms what improvements will I notice in my day to day life?

Not big picture stuff. Not ideas stuff. Not a refight of that tiresome shit debate. Just concrete changes to my life that can be attributed directly to Brexit.

I can think of a few (though not many) things that will become worse and/or more difficult.

...but I can't think of anything material that I will notice an improvement in.

Your passport will be blue and the papers won't have quite as many brexit front page stories.

 

[chilango]

Your passport will be blue and the papers won't have quite as many brexit front page stories.

Neither true.

My burgundy passport has about 8 years left on it and the papers will rattle on about Brexit for a while yet

 

[TopCat]

It feels like you and I must have been living on different planets over the past four years for you to see political benefits to brexit.

Practical disbenefits are very much part of the politics here in any case. You cannot meaningfully separate the two. And when I look at who is being fucked over by brexit as it stands, all I can say is that I don't share your politics at all. My politics includes wanting things to get better for those people.

You refused to look at who was getting fucked over by being in the EU, those who did not get the benefits. Worse, when it was pointed out you shrugged.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Neither true.

My burgundy passport has about 8 years left on it and the papers will rattle on about Brexit for a while yet

There will be a couple pages less I think because Boris Got Brexit done.

It'll be replaced with more Corona is the only thing wrong with the economy honest guv stories.

 

[Flavour]

I look forward to years of everything shit being blamed squarely on covid by leavers and on brexit by remainers.

There is no room for nuance. Everything is dead simple.

 

[prunus]

There is another thread just started for sensible questions and discussion on that topic.
This thread is more a constant redredging of shit and general fling it about sort of thing.

Ok I’ll check in over there. I’m genuinely interested, because I think my political objectives are largely in line with yours(?) (broadly: redistribution of wealth, opportunity, privilege), yet I don’t see brexit as anything other than antithetical to those aims.

 

[Cerv]

Ah, so it's a business, and should therefore bear its own operational costs?

doesn't follow that we need to go around artificially raising those costs to no wider benefit though.

 

[brogdale]

Neither true.

My burgundy passport has about 8 years left on it and the papers will rattle on about Brexit for a while yet

Yes, I think we can be confident that the the billionaire press will be very keen to present any 'good' economic news as evidence of the Brexit bonus and cast blame for any downsides towards the supra-state's continued meddling in 'our' affairs as a result of the unfair deal.

 

[NoXion]

doesn't follow that we need to go around artificially raising those costs to no wider benefit though.

Wrong way round. Costs were artificially lowered by being in the white boys' neoliberal club. Musicians in other parts of the world still have to meet those costs.

 

[TopCat]

Ok I’ll check in over there. I’m genuinely interested, because I think my political objectives are largely in line with yours(?) (broadly: redistribution of wealth, opportunity, privilege), yet I don’t see brexit as anything other than antithetical to those aims.

I will be along in a bit. Probably early in the new year.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I voted leave because I wanted out of the largely unaccountable neoliberal for-the-interests-of-capital EU. I also voted Labour to try and get rid of the right wing twats in charge in the UK. I voted on principle both times; not much else I could do and it's unfortunate I didn't get both as I would have preferred

 

[mauvais]

I voted leave because I wanted out of the largely unaccountable neoliberal for-the-interests-of-capital EU.

Given the balance of the agreed deal, what do you think about this now?

 

[bimble]

I voted leave, we left.
Like a divorce. Not living in the shed.
[/QUOTE]

The more bits and pieces of the actual agreement I see the more I think the living in the shed is a pretty good metaphor actually. Does not look like the UK has moved to a new town with its new girlfriend at all.

 

[eatmorecheese]

Exactly what I thought we might be able to raise, illustrate and discuss here
In about 56 hours we'll be able to do so with some clarity but, much as may like to, I don't think it's possible to limit any Brexit related discussion to purely practical, everyday matters when so many of the drivers were firmly rooted in the affective domain. But, then, hearing about how pro & anti views might modify over the unfolding months and years will, in itself, be quite interesting I think.

This is what has been bugging me the last couple of days. I feel relief, but only the relief of being able to assess and process the coming fuckries. Moving on.

I'm sick of the 'claims' on either side after nearly half a decade. I'm also deeply depressed by the sharp split in the left in relation to Brexit allowing the English Nationalist Tory rump to shred the social floor and poke sticks in our sides for an apparent eternity. I can't see a way through this. The idea that the Waffling Haystack proposes that this has put the European argument to bed is risible. This shit will just rumble on, permanent grievance, permanent fantasy wish-fulfilment, on either side.

I want to be optimistic.

Subscribes to thread

 

[philosophical]

I don't think anyone is saying music is shit.

I get the vibe that it is being said.
Along the lines of touring around parts Europe is some kind of non serious jolly up compared to real work.
If people are saying that music either as an art form or an industry is actually a good thing, then people getting better at it by touring around or playing gigs in places contributes to that kind of improvement.
I reckon an ace violinist for example is not born fully formed and able to play like Pagannini straight off, but probably went through hours of caterwauling practice in order to become any good.
Isn't that the nature of Arts generally? In order to have an Arts culture you have to accept that people are once beginners and need an opportunity to practice and hone their craft, and sometimes that process can't be monetised or measured in the same way other things are?
If you like, I wouldn't particularly say you learn to play the piano as much as by doing it you get better at it.
Hopefully at the same time people also get a sense of fulfillment and worth (whatever those things are, but they seem positive things).

 

[rutabowa]

Wrong way round. Costs were artificially lowered by being in the white boys' neoliberal club. Musicians in other parts of the world still have to meet those costs.

Nah this is total fantasy now.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Given the balance of the agreed deal, what do you think about this now?

I'd do the same again.

 

[TopCat]

Hiya!
Excited?

Weary. Far more worried about covid to be fair.

 

[brogdale]

Weary. Far more worried about covid to be fair.

That's fair perspective; it tells you something of the times we're living through that arguing amongst ourselves about Brexit amounts to something like light relief.

 

[TopCat]

That's fair perspective; it tells you something of the times we're living through that arguing amongst ourselves about Brexit amounts to something like light relief.

Well it is the dark days before New Year. Everything shut. Not even a three day guest to tut about.

 

[two sheds]

I know the other thread is dealing with the weightier matters but ...

Workers’ rights and environmental protections ‘easily eroded’ by Brexit trade deal, think tank warns

So-called ‘level playing field’ safeguards ‘considerably weaker than expected’ and ‘difficult to enforce’, says IPPR

www.independent.co.uk

Workers’ rights and environmental protections can be watered down easily under the Brexit trade deal, a think tank is warning.

The so-called “level playing field” safeguards the EU believes it secured – one of the key clashes that threatened the agreement – will be “difficult to enforce”, the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) said.


“The protections it offers on labour and environmental standards are surprisingly weak and appear to leave considerable scope for a UK government to weaken EU-derived protections,” warned Marley Morris, its associate director.

 

[TopCat]

What do people realistically think they will drop? It costs £900 minimum to go to an ET now. The EU didnt save us the Tory move that got us to that point.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Wrong way round. Costs were artificially lowered by being in the white boys' neoliberal club. Musicians in other parts of the world still have to meet those costs.

Another list we could make: posters coming out with identical arguments to those of Tory ministers.

When challenged over visas for scientists in the UK a while ago, a minister came out with more or less this argument - why should EU scientists be allowed to queue-jump? To which the angry response from those representing scientists was that 'you're the reason there is any fucking queue at all in the first place'.

You don't actually believe this crap you're coming out with do you?

 

[editor]

There is another thread just started for sensible questions and discussion on that topic.
This thread is more a constant redredging of shit and general fling it about sort of thing.

Surely it wouldn't take you long to knock out a bullet point list explaining all the great benefits that Brexit is going to bring to everyone? Lord knows, I've asked enough times but no one seems able to provide a response.

 

[TopCat]

Surely it wouldn't take you long to knock out a bullet point list explaining all the great benefits that Brexit is going to bring to everyone? Lord knows, I've asked enough times but no one seems able to provide a response.

You will keep asking with your fingers in your ears until no one is in the room but you.

 

[Smangus]

We'll have a better feel for the financial and practical impacts on ordinary folk in 3-10 months. Right now, if anyone thought Brexit has been settled they are likely in for a rude shock, this is only the beginning of it. Expect way more division, finger pointing and rancour before it gets any better.

 

[editor]

Wrong way round. Costs were artificially lowered by being in the white boys' neoliberal club. Musicians in other parts of the world still have to meet those costs.

What costs have 'artificially lowered' for white musicians? What extra costs do other musicians have to pay? I really have no idea what you're on about.

 

[kabbes]

Surely it wouldn't take you long to knock out a bullet point list explaining all the great benefits that Brexit is going to bring to everyone? Lord knows, I've asked enough times but no one seems able to provide a response.

It’s because you’re looking for an instrumental construction in response to a question about identity.