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Check harder.
I've had friends kill themselves this year after losing all their work, then all hope.

That's because a novel coronavirus pandemic started this year and is still on-going. That was always going to fuck with any industry involving live events. That's rather more impactful than having to pay extra to tour Europe. Even musicians without European ambitions have been fucked.
 
I do, yes; I likely have more practical experience of the processes of divorces than the average person, from both my personal and professional lives.

So let me try to extrapolate an answer to my question from your posited analogy.

Divorces involve many disbenefits of different kinds to both parties; financially both parties will be worse off in the short to medium term, and in the case of the financially weaker party (the UK in this case) likely in the long and foreseeable term too. There are obviously immediate practical disbenefits too - ie having to arrange the divorce terms; in a case where the parties have to continue dealing with each other (for example children, or shared trade, or one could look two geographical blocks having to stay next to each other like a divorced couple having to continue living in the same house) there will have to be continued arrangements too, which all-too-often (and certainly much more often than not) are contiuned sources of acrimony (and hence disbenefit) as well.

Divorcing parties bear these large and long-term financial and practical disbenefits because they cannot at an emotional level countenance continuing to live together. They consider the emotional benefit worth all the practical disbenefits.

I extract from this that your answer might mean that you recognise there are no practical benefits from leaving the EU, however you were made so emotionally unhappy by living in a UK that was part of the EU that any disbenefit from leaving is outweighed by the emotional benefit of removing that source of unhappiness. Is this close to a correct summary?
Do you remember that Viz character? Your writing style hinders understanding of your arguments.
 
That's because a novel coronavirus pandemic started this year and is still on-going. That was always going to fuck with any industry involving live events. That's rather more impactful than having to pay extra to tour Europe. Even musicians without European ambitions have been fucked.
wanker tbh
 
I am not surprised that a confessed brexit voter struggles to see the value in music (and possibly all creative activities). It is all a bit Jacob Rees Mogg to talk of travelling musicians paid at taverns where they entertain.
Mind you I do feel a bit cheered up to realise I didn't vote the same way as that wanker, but depressed that he is a winner along with his fellow travellers Farage, Yaxley Lennon, Rabb and so on.
I think music is a very cool thing, and it has the added element that is is a force capable of crossing borders, mind you brexit voters voted to 'control borders', so the distain shown towards music suggests they may feel threatened by the universality of the art form.
 
I am not surprised that a confessed brexit voter struggles to see the value in music (and possibly all creative activities). It is all a bit Jacob Rees Mogg to talk of travelling musicians paid at taverns where they entertain.
Mind you I do feel a bit cheered up to realise I didn't vote the same way as that wanker, but depressed that he is a winner along with his fellow travellers Farage, Yaxley Lennon, Rabb and so on.
I think music is a very cool thing, and it has the added element that is is a force capable of crossing borders, mind you brexit voters voted to 'control borders', so the distain shown towards music suggests they may feel threatened by the universality of the art form.

Oh good grief.
 
I am not surprised that a confessed brexit voter struggles to see the value in music (and possibly all creative activities). It is all a bit Jacob Rees Mogg to talk of travelling musicians paid at taverns where they entertain.
Mind you I do feel a bit cheered up to realise I didn't vote the same way as that wanker, but depressed that he is a winner along with his fellow travellers Farage, Yaxley Lennon, Rabb and so on.
I think music is a very cool thing, and it has the added element that is is a force capable of crossing borders, mind you brexit voters voted to 'control borders', so the distain shown towards music suggests they may feel threatened by the universality of the art form.
I don't think anyone is saying music is shit.
 
Maybe we should start making a list of the things that it doesn't matter that we'll lose or will become harder or more expensive. We'll get over it, or something.


Food other than what's in season in the UK.

Foreign holidays.

Playing live music around Europe.

Playing the viola anywhere (cunts).

Studying abroad.

Working abroad.

Getting ill abroad.


What else is there that we really just need to fucking get over?
 
Maybe we should start making a list of the things that it doesn't matter that we'll lose or will become harder or more expensive. We'll get over it, or something.


Food other than what's in season in the UK.

Foreign holidays.

Playing live music around Europe.

Playing the viola anywhere (cunts).

Studying abroad.

Working abroad.

Getting ill abroad.


What else is there that we really just need to fucking get over?
Just yourself
 
As one of those keyworkers majority of people I work wiith ( in inner London) were Remain.

Yes it would be good if Guardian did interview working class keyworkers. But I don't think that the opionions would be necessarily positive about leaving.
I wouldn't make assumptions myself. It just might seem more relevant if concerns about brexit from a working class perspective were aired. I would certainly pay attention.
It's hard to take this talk of horror from professional viola players etc.
 
I was supposed to be having some upgrades to my central heating done before Christmas. The parts were ordered from Germany at the beginning of December and the company normally ships stuff in about a week. They didn't arrive in time and the German company is now being a bit vague about delivery saying it's probably going to be the end of January. I don't know whether the problem is Brexit or COVID related. All I know is their UK website will no longer take orders paid for via credit card until "new customs regulations" are in place.
 
I've a simple question.

In practical, everyday, terms what improvements will I notice in my day to day life?

Not big picture stuff. Not ideas stuff. Not a refight of that tiresome shit debate. Just concrete changes to my life that can be attributed directly to Brexit.

I can think of a few (though not many) things that will become worse and/or more difficult.

...but I can't think of anything material that I will notice an improvement in.
 
bimble — if you want to understand more about the cosmopolitan elite associations of “enjoying the cultural EU” being a cultural split between posh remainers and working-class leavers, I suggest you have a look at this paper that I posted earlier
For example, this is a relevant passage:

Just read this,

Will add it as its not in quoted post.

One thing about the paper relevant here is that the analysis of the interviews found that there could be some common ground in post Brexit UK.

The paper argues that the reasons for being Remain or Brexit are not clear cut.

For example some who were going to vote Leave thought that being in EU was holding Britain back from having its own international relationships with rest of World. So Leave vote was not all insular little Englander.

I think the paper was trying to put forward the case that bridges could be built between the Leave/ Remain divide that is present in the country ( and on this thread) as the country moves to post Brexit UK in the future.

This is optimistic imo under this hard right Tory government.

But the paper is useful for putitng the idea forward.

How to actually do it in the present atmosphere is a real problem.

( to add the paper is based on interviews with focus groups from different parts of England ( yes only England). Breakdown by social class and whether male or female)

Thanks for posting it up kabbes I have issues with some of it but considering the recent posts it does chart a possible way to move forward from Brexit.
 

Attachments

  • andreouli2018.pdf
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The political benefits, for me outweigh any practical disbenefits as it stands.
It feels like you and I must have been living on different planets over the past four years for you to see political benefits to brexit.

Practical disbenefits are very much part of the politics here in any case. You cannot meaningfully separate the two. And when I look at who is being fucked over by brexit as it stands, all I can say is that I don't share your politics at all. My politics includes wanting things to get better for those people.
 
I think a lot of this ire is rooted in outdated ideas of what class is, especially when it comes to defining middle class vs working class. The boundaries are not as firm as they used to be and it's easy to dismiss touring musicians as middle class when many of them aren't.

The relentless push of government towards uni as the only viable career path in the 90s means you can't necessarily see that as a marker of the middle classes. Nor can you see enjoying or touring Europe as a solely middle class thing. Plenty of drivers and truckers go abroad or workers hit the resort's as well.

Does Europe and free movement benefit the middle and upper class? Of course it does, because that's how the system works. But it does give gateways to get the fuck out of Britain to the working class, a gateway that's now been shut. While middle and upper classes can still pay the way out of here.

It's also worth noting there is a hollowing out of lower to middle, middle class roles now, automation and competition has fucked over university jobs and archaeology jobs and a bunch of roles you'd assume was well paid and sit down. With unis frequently paying less and less for staff and sticking them on zero hours.

Happy left leavers see brexit as a celebration to leave Europe but at the moment the Tories are firmly in the driving seat. It's wishful thinking to assume anything good is going to come out of this soon. Eventually people will wise up I hope but the odds that we get s blow against capital out of this are slim and frankly I'm getting to old for this shit to wait it out. We have a firmly right government, a tame press and the current plans for making the most out of brexit all involve further tax cuts for the rich and we've just lost any surety on what the future holds for a huge swathe of service industries that are already barely breaking even on payday.

DAMN those people finding a job that they enjoy.

You know I voted remain and I think brexit is stupid right? Just checking here.
 
I've a simple question.

In practical, everyday, terms what improvements will I notice in my day to day life?

Not big picture stuff. Not ideas stuff. Not a refight of that tiresome shit debate. Just concrete changes to my life that can be attributed directly to Brexit.

I can think of a few (though not many) things that will become worse and/or more difficult.

...but I can't think of anything material that I will notice an improvement in.
Exactly what I thought we might be able to raise, illustrate and discuss here :thumbs:
In about 104 hours we'll be able to do so with some clarity but, much as may like to, I don't think it's possible to limit any Brexit related discussion to purely practical, everyday matters when so many of the drivers were firmly rooted in the affective domain. But, then, hearing about how pro & anti views might modify over the unfolding months and years will, in itself, be quite interesting I think.
 
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