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The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

Isn't the musician thing a simple example that some things are worse now (or in a few days) than they were before leaving the EU?
I imagine there will be a lot of other examples of deterioration to set alongside probably no examples of benefits whatsoever.
 
People I know who toured Europe doing gigs were mostly doing so in between signing on days. Much harder to do now of course. #brexitisn'ttheonlybadthingintheworld
We managed to blag a short tour of Austria when I was a kid and we had to fit in in-between signing on days. There was 8 of us in a transit van with all the gear. We slept in the van a couple of nights. The biggest ballache was having to get a carnet paid for and sorted out, and we were 2 hours late for one gig because we had undergo a border check where the guards made us take all the equipment out and generally fuck us about.

Aye, it was right middle class luxury.
 
I think we're all a little guilty of falling into a culture wars trap with brexit and all this bullshit about EU membership being the best thing that ever happened or conversely a complete waste of time has very adequately distracted comrades who largely agree on a wide range of issues from making any progress, at all, regarding those issues. It is often thoroughly depressing to read this thread.
I think this, excuse the long rambling...

We have engaged in a fairly stupid but not surprising act of self-destruction that has predictably strengthened prevailing capital interests and in doing so, not as the main event, it will have worsened our conditions. I think back to those who said that a brawl between two factions of capital wasn't their fight and I have some sympathy for that but I think we still tangibly lost. I think a lot of it is regrettable, most particularly the concessions and allowances the public have made, the disconnect between actions and consequences, and the unlikeliness of learning anything valuable from the entire experience. Nonetheless it is not that major a change and no major change is forthcoming. What it has done is damaged or removed the thin layer of social benefits that were provided as compensation, so we as individuals are worse off, but those benefits were inversely proportionate to one's position in society, so it is largely true that all this stuff is 'middle class'. I'll come back to that. Either way the great Brexit debacle is now done and whilst it will have hotly debated consequences it's not likely to be seriously reevaluated any time soon.

That said, this whole first bit is in many ways a waste of time because, in the absence of a great disruptor, global capital will, like water, find its level and it would be wholly unsurprising if we ended up fully back in the EU in my lifetime, without ever having any need for vocal Brejoin.

Then there's the culture war which in many ways is independent of Brexit and exists to either consolidate power in itself, or as a distraction from doing so. All of this stuff about worsening conditions for the middle class is a good if not enormously important example of it, as Winot pointed out earlier. There's a distinct absence of structural analysis in favour of identity stereotypes. It ought to matter more whether these things favour structural inequality that manifests in power relationships, like landlordism or exploiting employment, and if they don't then why are we fighting over them? Is 'middle class' in this context just an ability to consume more or live more lavishly under the same system? So what? Are we really in pursuit of the lowest common denominator amongst ourselves before addressing any higher structures?

Britain and particularly England is going to have to come to terms with what it is or perhaps more importantly isn't. I think the short term outlook for this is poor and we are sliding further backwards from an already negative starting point. In the ways that mattered, we were not really beholden to the EU. We should have confronted that the British state chose to do almost all of what it did, and that continues. I think we the English will for some time continue to empower those responsible for our problems - as we have in this entire enterprise - whilst trying to give each other a kicking for it. I think we deluded ourselves that it was an obsessive 'get Brexit done' mentality that sustained our national politics as they are but think time will show that to be false. I think in time this will probably result in something a lot more fash but I don't know what yet. It's hard to see what positives will flow from it any time soon but before we can think about that we need to get our own house in order and stop doing the very opposite of what we said we would do: establishing solidarity and not fighting capital's culture war.
 
Weird, as the Czech Republic wasn't in the EU until 2004 and even now doesn't really use the Euro :p

aye, forgot it was Czech crowns then! I think I just did the mental conversion in my head at the time then remembered the equivalent amounts now (which were probably pounds rather than Euros tbh). And there was a (snowy) border where passport control misprounced most people’s names comically, and made some of us get out of the van and walk over the border in sub-zero temperatures because there weren’t proper seats in the back (we walked about half a mile past the border then jumped back in)

This was more as an example of bands not needing £200 per night to tour than specifically about borders, I think the years I did tours (either playing or freeloading with friends bands) did see some changes as things opened up more, first one was pre-Schengen I think, which came in during 95. It could be done dirt cheap with friends and imagination, quit my job for a three week tour once and got by spending only £20 including a bit of duty free, bargain for a holiday like that. Just a shame it took about a month to get another job which left me particularly skint (no dole for leaving a job voluntarily).
 
This was more as an example of bands not needing £200 per night to tour than specifically about borders, I think the years I did tours (either playing or freeloading with friends bands) did see some changes as things opened up more, first one was pre-Schengen I think, which came in during 95. It could be done dirt cheap with friends and imagination, quit my job for a three week tour once and got by spending only £20 including a bit of duty free, bargain for a holiday like that. Just a shame it took about a month to get another job which left me particularly skint (no dole for leaving a job voluntarily).
It's incredibly easy for a band to play around Europe for next to nothing. It's now more common for venues to provide full backline, so it's just a case of the musicians getting over there by coach/train/van and finding somewhere to sleep. Some venues offer rudimentary accommodation too, or there's usually other bands/friends/fans willing to offer some floor space.
This notion that it's only well off middle class musicians who get to play outside of the UK is embarrassingly naïve and ignorant.
 
You seem to think a band has to be 'big' to play gigs in Europe. That is total fucking bollocks. And for most bands, tours are anything but 'luxurious.'

You appear to be claiming getting to play gigs in Europe solely a 'middle class' occupation which of, course, is another load of ignorant bollocks.

I haven't mentioned luxury once, you brought that up. You want to accuse me of a strawman, that's fine, but it's hypocrisy that really grinds my gears.

I get that you're upset about your music friends having to pay more to do their thing, but I'm sure you understand that gigs and stuff are luxuries, so the complaints about carnets etc can sound really off when they're being talked about in the context of the current economy.

Besides, when you say things like this:

It's incredibly easy for a band to play around Europe for next to nothing.

You undermine your own argument. Any other type of business that can operate around Europe cheaply, but then complains when it has to pay a little extra, would get rightfully pilloried on here.

People I know who toured Europe doing gigs were mostly doing so in between signing on days. Much harder to do now of course. #brexitisn'ttheonlybadthingintheworld

Damn, imagine having to pay money to pursue your hobby activities. I think the EU should subsidise my hobbies, where's my extra cash for a new graphics card? Can I get allowances if I stream my games?
 
Good luck to skint musicians wherever.
However theres more to this than it being harder to sign on and go touring.
 
Occasionally I read it said about rejoining the EU the institution the UK was at the heart of shaping.
Leaving aside the technical merits or de merits, I wonder why on earth the UK free EU would accept a return of the UK, after the UK has given them a massive fuck you and caused so much distraction and disruption.
For that reason I find it difficult to see the UK being accepted back.
 
I haven't mentioned luxury once, you brought that up. You want to accuse me of a strawman, that's fine, but it's hypocrisy that really grinds my gears.
Exactly. So it is a small minority who get the luxury of touring Europe, right?
Oops!
I get that you're upset about your music friends having to pay more to do their thing, but I'm sure you understand that gigs and stuff are luxuries, so the complaints about carnets etc can sound really off when they're being talked about in the context of the current economy.
And there go about luxuries again. Music is not a 'luxury' and neither is being a musician some kind of hobby.

Damn, imagine having to pay money to pursue your hobby activities
Why do you keep on insisting that music is a hobby? It's not. Why do you keep trying to put musicians down?

  • The UK music industry contributed £5.2 billion to the UK economy in 2018, up from £4.5 billion the previous year.
  • The total export revenue of the music industry was £2.7 billion in 2018, up from £2.6 billion in 2017.
  • Employment in the industryhit an all-time high of 190,935 in 2018.
 
Oops!
And there go about luxuries again. Music is not a 'luxury' and neither is being a musician some kind of hobby.

Why do you keep on insisting that music is a hobby? It's not.
A pursuit is more a hobby when it doesn't pay it's way no? Gigs in Berlin for €300 euros seem to fit that bill.
 
Oops!
And there go about luxuries again. Music is not a 'luxury' and neither is being a musician some kind of hobby.

Last I checked, people don't die for lack of live music.

Why do you keep on insisting that music is a hobby? It's not.

Ah, so it's a business, and should therefore bear its own operational costs?
 
Good luck to skint musicians wherever.
However theres more to this than it being harder to sign on and go touring.
Good job that no one was making that claim. But your lack of support and empathy for musicians (and, indeed the entire arts industry as many will be equally affected) is duly noted.
 
What mauvais said about the dogged pursuit of the lowest common denominator feels true looking at this thread, turnips for all and be grateful. What a massively depressing and shit way of looking at the world and a total dead end. In the meantime, whilst we are busy attacking all those upstart musicians the people with 2nd homes in France will be just fine.
 
A pursuit is more a hobby when it doesn't pay it's way no? Gigs in Berlin for €300 euros seem to fit that bill.
I really can't be bothered to deal with this patronising, dismissive shit. Is someone doing work placement just indulging in a hobby too? There's plenty of occupations that don't make much money when you start off and it's not unusual for cafes, shops and small businesses to make a loss in their first few years too. Are they all to be dismissed as hobbyists too?
 
Please, more talk of delayed wine imports and the lack of the Euro arrest warrant.

You seem to be arguing that although we are losing some things with practical applications, none of those things are of particular importance in your opinion. Can you list some practical things of particular importance that we are gaining?
 
You seem to be arguing that although we are losing some things with practical applications, none of those things are of particular importance in your opinion. Can you list some practical things of particular importance that we are gaining?
The list has one item of importance.
We voted leave, we got to leave.
 
What mauvais said about the dogged pursuit of the lowest common denominator feels true, what a massively depressing and shit way of looking at the world and a total dead end. In the meantime, whilst we are busy attacking all those upstart musicians the people with 2nd homes in France will be just fine.
Yep. The attacks on musicians here - and the attempts to paint them all as middle class hobbyists enjoying luxury trips abroad - really makes for depressing reading.
 
What mauvais said about the dogged pursuit of the lowest common denominator feels true looking at this thread, turnips for all and be grateful. What a massively depressing and shit way of looking at the world and a total dead end. In the meantime, whilst we are busy attacking all those upstart musicians the people with 2nd homes in France will be just fine.

Those "upstart musicians" are in a business, nay an industry. Or so I'm told.
 
You know full well he meant luxury in the sense of being able to go off playing music around Europe rather than it being all room service and complimentary biscuits, don't be disingenuous
He's describing being able to tour as a 'luxury' for musicians. Do you agree with that view? Is it a luxury for anyone having to occasionally travel aboard for work, or only musicians?
 
He's describing being able to tour as a 'luxury' for musicians. Do you agree with that view? Is it a luxury for anyone having to occasionally travel aboard for work, or only musicians?

Traveling abroad for work, how fancy. OK, so you've made it clear that you're talking about musicians operating as part of an industry. So you are quite literally complaining because businesses have to pay more.

Like I said earlier, isn't that the kind of thing that usually gets mocked around these parts? Unless it's an industry we happen to work in or like, I guess?
 
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