The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[Artaxerxes]

It’ll involve little more than toadying to the moneyed elite in China and India to send their offspring here to study. Plus it’ll be run by someone like Capita who will trouser most of the funding for their own fees.

Essentially we're swapping a program with joined up intricate bureaucracy that opens the door to a couple hundred unis with a frictionless visa system for a program where every university is going to ask for something different and also retain a massive quantity of paperwork for staff and students while sorting out visas and accommodation reliant on those is going to be an absolute paih in the arse.

 

[Steel Icarus]

In the late 90s I was doing gigs in remote bits of the Czech Republic and getting 20-30 Euros shared between two bands, sleeping on someone’s floor, occasionally a decent feed. One place paid us 20 but deducted from that the bar tab for two bands (9 people, mostly hammered), which ended up as 14 euro because pivo was about 20p.

Weird, as the Czech Republic wasn't in the EU until 2004 and even now doesn't really use the Euro

 

[Steel Icarus]

Not doubting your numbers btw, I went to Prague in 1999 and four of us went out in a cab, had dinner, got pissed and paid to see live jazz and the total was under £20.

I do remember armed border guards detaining the bus for an hour when crossing between Germany and Czech Rep, though, presumably didn't happen a few years later.

 

[TopCat]

Essentially we're swapping a program with joined up intricate bureaucracy that opens the door to a couple hundred unis with a frictionless visa system for a program where every university is going to ask for something different and also retain a massive quantity of paperwork for staff and students while sorting out visas and accommodation reliant on those is going to be an absolute paih in the arse.

My son went and studied in Canada for a year recently. Really simple process, did it all himself.

 

[flypanam]

Not saying that, but getting rid of Erasmus is premature. Turing may end up being global in scope but in practice probably won't stretch any further than commonwealth countries. There is a delusion here, and a soppy, misty eyed belief in English exceptionalism that allows the tories to promise much and deliver little.

 

[TopCat]

"Give up your silly dreams, son. Music's not for you. Get a proper job."

Sounds like any unsupportive dad. Why say Tory though?

 

[Yossarian]

In that case they should cancel Brexit.

"This academic exchange program has benefited myself and other educators."

"Shut up and eat some Brexit, Tarquin!"

 

[bimble]

The constant tendency to equate anything foreign with poshness is very weird. Seems to go for everything, cheese, jobs, the lot. What is that about.

 

[The39thStep]

"Give up your silly dreams, son. Music's not for you. Get a proper job."

9 pop stars who quit music for very relatable day jobs - BBC Music

When the dream is over, that gig as a software engineer, farmer or estate agent beckons

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Artaxerxes]

My son went and studied in Canada for a year recently. Really simple process, did it all himself.

That's nice but I'm mostly going from details here.

The constant tendency to equate anything foreign with poshness is very weird. Seems to go for everything, cheese, jobs, the lot. What is that about.

Apparently noone who isn't posh visits Europe which is going to be news to Spain and Prague's cheap boozers.

 

[The39thStep]

[

The constant tendency to equate anything foreign with poshness is very weird. Seems to go for everything, cheese, jobs, the lot. What is that about.

Accept when it applies to many remainers views of w/class ex pats who apparently aren't foreign enough

 

[mauvais]

Are you going to live the rest of your days doing a Remain-flavour version of "but her emails"?

 

[teuchter]

My son went and studied in Canada for a year recently. Really simple process, did it all himself.

Is his name Tarquin? It's a shame Brexit can't stop this kind of thing too.

 

[Winot]

Struggling to give a fuck about a bunch of Tarquins jollying it up at foreign unis at my expense tbh.

And this is how the parochial mindset of Brexit killed opportunities for the working-class.

 

[bimble]

Is it the whole rest of the world that’s pretentious and posh or is it actually mostly just France ? (Seriously, curious about the roots of this attitude and how much it had to do with the whole stupid referendum).

 

[kabbes]

The constant tendency to equate anything foreign with poshness is very weird. Seems to go for everything, cheese, jobs, the lot. What is that about.

It comes from the association of which subcultures enjoy these things, which in turn becomes of the group identity. Then people self-categorise (and thus identify) as members of a group that in part defines itself by not being something, as all groups do. The middle classes have built a cultural norm around certain types of food, drink, activity etc. Identifying as not middle class will then partially involve the rejection of these cultural norms.

 

[Winot]

Is it the whole rest of the world that’s pretentious and posh or is it actually mostly just France ? (Seriously, curious about the roots of this attitude and how much it had to do with the whole stupid referendum).

The rich Brexiteers like Lawson with his French residency want to keep the working class Brits out of Europe to save it for themselves.

 

[kabbes]

bimble — if you want to understand more about the cosmopolitan elite associations of “enjoying the cultural EU” being a cultural split between posh remainers and working-class leavers, I suggest you have a look at this paper that I posted earlier

This is a study that looks at how people understood the relationship between Britain and Europe during the critical period.

For example, this is a relevant passage:

In addition to their young age and geographical location (London), which have both been associated with the Remain vote (Swales 2016), the middle-class background of these participants is important for understanding their accounts. The use of the words ‘sophisticated’, ‘cosmopolitan’, ‘arts’ and ‘gourmet’ point to a conception of a rather ‘high-brow’ European cultural identity, one that is more associated with the cultural capital of the middle and upper classes (Savage 2015). As has been noted by scholars of cosmopolitanism, this appears to be an ‘elitist’ conception of cosmopolitanism which is more relevant to the material resources and lifestyles of transnational elites (Calhoun 2002). Although ‘groundedness’ is also part of this representation of Europe described by Amanda above, this point remains unelaborated whilst ideas around cosmopolitanism and high culture take centre stage. In this account of Europeanness, Britishness is presented as not sufficiently cultured to be European

 

[Pickman's model]

The rich Brexiteers like Lawson with his French residency want to keep the working class Brits out of Europe to save it for themselves.

If they had their way they'd keep the european working classes out of europe too, except those cheap east european handymen

 

[The39thStep]

And this is how the parochial mindset of Brexit killed opportunities for the working-class.

I think this has far more significance for opportunities for the w/class

Apprenticeships are the UK’s ‘weakest’ education provision, watchdog warns

<p xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Ofsted says many providers are failing to develop their curriculums in conjunction with employers</p>

www.peoplemanagement.co.uk

 

[The39thStep]

If they had their way they'd keep the european working classes out of europe too, except those cheap east european handymen

The EU are doing quite a good job on that issue as well, 16 million workers unemployed , more than 7 per cent in the eurozone and 110m people live in poverty.

 

[not-bono-ever]

. Another Fuck it

 

[philosophical]

I very much doubt the debate (?) over brexit is going to go away. Diminish a bit possibly, but on a regular basis news will emerge about how things are worse now that the nationalists have succeeded in their destructive mission, and there will a pathetic attempt to say things are better because of blue passports or less 'foreigners' or some such rubbish.
I suspect that behind all this is a further opportunity for hedge funds and whatnot, money jugglers if you like, to make numerical fortunes whilst others work as their gardeners or coffee shop drones.
Watching the news in the last week or so about the rise and fall of the pound, whilst the 'will they won't they' do a deal news is pumped out would've been great for those in the know and they would not have been 'gambling' on the exchange rate changes, but exploiting such movement for enrichment.
For me the greatest sadness right now, as somebody born into a world of rationing and bombsites, yet with some hope in the form of the NHS and improved education, and further hope in seeing a willingness across Europe for people to get along together, the sadness is living long enough to see the destruction of that hope.
No more EU to soften the eternal mendacious grip of rule by the English establishment, a future of Nationalism and privatisation and lies and exploitation.
I will be intrigued most especially how those who previously called themselves lexiters contribute to their £120million 'Festival of Brexit' designed to bring the country together.
I personally can't see a route to reconciliation with anybody who is comfortable in the company of the brexit crowd like Farage, Rees Mogg, Redwood, Johnson, Francois, Rabb, Stephen Yakitty Lookatme, Hoey, and the rest. It will be a source of horrific fascination observing those purporting to be of the left equivocating about their new alliances with right wing bastards.
Maybe one of the stalls at the Festival will be a queue of lexiters lining up to pay their £50 to receive a celebratory reach around from Andrew Bridgen or Priti Patel.

 

[eatmorecheese]

.... aaaand breathe.

 

[editor]

9 pop stars who quit music for very relatable day jobs - BBC Music

When the dream is over, that gig as a software engineer, farmer or estate agent beckons

www.bbc.co.uk

Except they had a successful pop career first.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Additional fuck it

 

[ska invita]

Is it the whole rest of the world that’s pretentious and posh or is it actually mostly just France ? (Seriously, curious about the roots of this attitude and how much it had to do with the whole stupid referendum).

Total guess, but might have a bit of truth in it:

Norman invasion of 1066 bringing with it the culture and practice of the French aristocracy.
Creating a massive class division between those empowered by the French (Normans) who adopt the mores Vs those proud anglosaxons who don't / are left out.

There's also stuff like The Great Tour, where younger British socialites would travel around Europe and learn of the splendour of post Roman greatness in the hope some of it would rub off.

 

[rutabowa]

Those who do it more or less as a holiday for fun and adventure, not arsed about the money.

Petrol, somewhere to stay, a feed, anything else a bonus.

In the late 90s I was doing gigs in remote bits of the Czech Republic and getting 20-30 Euros shared between two bands, sleeping on someone’s floor, occasionally a decent feed. One place paid us 20 but deducted from that the bar tab for two bands (9 people, mostly hammered), which ended up as 14 euro because pivo was about 20p.

Tours would usually be bankrolled by state-funded German youth clubs with an entertainment budget that’d pay you 250-300 even if there was fuckall turnout, a few of those to fill the diesel tank then head east where anything was a bonus. Some extra cash from records and T-shirts but those were put out cheap or sometimes just traded for things. Kind of like those Sunday league teams that go for a week’s tour in Holland, nobody expects to get paid. Harder these days because fuel is a lot more, fewer squat venues or moneyed youth clubs, much more cost or inconvenience and it’ll be pretty much dead for DIY touring.

Right! Good news on the carnet thing not happening, for this type of touring.

So it will probably be covid that killed this kind of touring, rather than brexit.

 

[The39thStep]

Except they had a successful pop career first.

Yes the title says pop stars. It was light hearted not meant as any career advice

 

[ska invita]

Is it the whole rest of the world that’s pretentious and posh or is it actually mostly just France ? (Seriously, curious about the roots of this attitude and how much it had to do with the whole stupid referendum).

I'm vaguely aware of this influential book

The Civilizing Process - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Which places the spread and application of the culture of the French aristocracy at the heart of many modern "civilised" norms