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The Ashes 2009

Drop Pietersen, I say. And let everyone know that attitude is more important than talent.

It's what Australia would do. It's what Australia did do, in effect, with Dean Jones.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Drop Pietersen, I say. And let everyone know that attitude is more important than talent.

It's what Australia would do. It's what Australia did do, in effect, with Dean Jones.
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I've got some sympathy with this view. It's amazing how often Collingwood is our best player on the pitch, despite arguably having the least natural talent.

Not sure that I could actually bring myself to do it though. When all's said and done, he still top-scored in the first innings!

ETA: And in the second innings, it wasn't attitude that did for him. He didn't play and miss, he didn't play at it in the first place.
 
I think he needs at least the next test to show what's he's prepared to put back - there should be no shibboleths though. You're right about the aussies, they understood/understand that.
 
kabbes said:
I've got some sympathy with this view. It's amazing how often Collingwood is our best player on the pitch, despite arguably having the least natural talent.

Not sure that I could actually bring myself to do it though. When all's said and done, he still top-scored in the first innings!
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Which shows exactly why we need him to play for the team - we're not strong enough to have him play the way he did in those innings.
 
He's always played the odd daft shot, and may well continue to do so, doesn't bother me tbh. He took loads of risks against Lee at the Oval in '05 that secured us the Ashes ffs.

Cook, Strauss et al are the ones that need to step up IMO.
 
No, that's true. He is very frustrating.

If we had the players who all laid down solid half-centuries, we could afford a match-winner who went for it. But when he comes in down the order with the team in trouble, it's a different story.

Something you hear so often from players these days is, "it's just the way I play". Biggest bollocks ever, that. Being a top player means being able to flex your style to the situation. Again, look at Collingwood: in the first innings he initially zoomed through the scoring and in general he is more than capable of getting more than a run a ball. But then in the second innings he survived for over 300 balls. That's what you need in a test side.
 
kabbes said:
Something you hear so often from players these days is, "it's just the way I play". Biggest bollocks ever, that.
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Yep. And it is more for this attitude than for the actual shots that I'd drop Pietersen. Steve Waugh was a compulsive hooker early on in his career – good at it too, but hooking is dangerous and even the best will get out doing it. What did Waugh do? Did he say 'ah well, that's just the way I play and it's been pretty good so far'? No. He took the conscious decision never to play the hook shot ever again in test cricket, and never again did he play it.
 
kabbes said:
No, that's true. He is very frustrating.

If we had the players who all laid down solid half-centuries, we could afford a match-winner who went for it. But when he comes in down the order with the team in trouble, it's a different story.

Something you hear so often from players these days is, "it's just the way I play". Biggest bollocks ever, that. Being a top player means being able to flex your style to the situation. Again, look at Collingwood: in the first innings he initially zoomed through the scoring and in general he is more than capable of getting more than a run a ball. But then in the second innings he survived for over 300 balls. That's what you need in a test side.
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Equally, Colly has had patches where hasn't been able to buy a run. He did well last match, KP looked out of touch in the both innings innings and played a silly shot in the first innings. An out of form KP gets 69, an out of form collingwood gets about 10 in 4 tests as last summer.

Don't get me wrong, I like Colly and I don't like KP but they are different and I don't buy the idea that Colly is 'better' - He's more admirable, but not really 'better'

At some point I think KP will hit one of the Aussies out of the attack in the series - I can't see any other England batsman having the ability or attitude to dismantle one of the opposition bowlers.

For me, worries if I were Andy Flower are...

Why have the top three managed nothing in 6 innings between them?
Why has Stuart Broad contributed nothing (see my previous post)?
Why was our spinning so flaccid? (Swann pretty much admitted to being a bit psyched out in the paper yesterday and poor old Monty...)
Can we play Fred if he's not 100%? Does that mean four bowlers? If so, does that mean bringing back Ian 'phased by the Aussies' Bell?
Graham Onions?

I might be wanting to have a natter with KP, but it's his form I'd be worried about - now, yeah that might be linked to attitude or pride or whatever, but from what I understand, he trains really hard and has greater 'professionalism' off the pitch than many of his team-mates, so I dunno really what I'd say...

'Er, KP, stop, like getting out, ok?'
'Righto boss, I won't get out again'

If you tell him to go and play like Boycott or he gets dropped, you run the real risk of doing what Illingworth did to Malcom, taking a natural but wild talent and trying to 'tweak it' to the point where it's ruined. It's arguably happened to Monty as well. I'm not saying international players are beyond coaching but that coaching has to be with the player, not reconstructing them...

So actually, when players say 'that's the way I play' there is some truth in it. If Devon Malcom had told Illingworth to fuck off, England might have actually had a player who bore some resemblance to Devon Malcom for the latter half of the nineties.
 
Devon Malcolm was a liability. Harsh truth is, he was probably too old to ever change.

Plenty of younger tearaway fast bowlers have changed how they play to improve. Richard Hadlee is probably the best example.

All I can do with Pietersen is compare how he plays with the way all the Australian top order has played for the last decade and a half. I just don't think the way he throws it away would be tolerated by Australia. They'd kick him out of the team.
 
What lbj said. Also, I'm not saying that Collingwood is better than Pieterson. Far from it. I'm saying that it is frustrating that Pieterson is hiding behind natural talent as an excuse to not push himself forward. If someone like Collingwood can learn to adapt his game then someone like Pieterson DEFINITELY can learn to adapt his game. He should be light years ahead. But if you're that good, you don't get out for 69 in that way. Can you imagine either Waugh doing that?
 
Justin langer has spent the last few years coaching the somerset batsmen on exactly those lines (edit:the ones lbj outlined) and it's now paying off, we're the strongest batting team in the country. You can work on the players mentality without rubbing out their spark.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Devon Malcolm was a liability. Harsh truth is, he was probably too old to ever change.

Plenty of younger tearaway fast bowlers have changed how they play to improve. Richard Hadlee is probably the best example.

All I can do with Pietersen is compare how he plays with the way all the Australian top order has played for the last decade and a half. I just don't think the way he throws it away would be tolerated by Australia. They'd kick him out of the team.
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I agree, Malcom made Harmison look like a heat seaking missile for a lot of the latter part of his test career but do you not think Malcom became a liability because they tried to change him?
 
I don't really remember Malcom before he went off the boil. But generally -- just because you got it horribly wrong with one player, doesn't mean that you can't get it right with others.
 
butchersapron said:
Jusatin langer has spent the last few years coaching the somerset batsmen on exactly those lines (edit:the ones lbj outlined) and it's now paying off, we're the strongest batting team in the country. You can work on the players mentality without rubbing out their spark.
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With the loveliest batting strip in the country... :p

No, I'd agree with that to be fair, but I'd worry about giving him ultimatums like - 'get out to a silly shot ever again and we'll drop you' as I think especially without Flintoff (whose just announced retirement btw, dunno if that been posted) we have serious lack of real aggression in the side and with Malcom, I'm only giving an example of a player who became frightened to actually do what he was good at.

This said, in a way I'd love Flower and Strauss to have a right go at him... He should listen to Flower, his record as a batsman was outstanding after all
 
kabbes said:
I don't really remember Malcom before he went off the boil. But generally -- just because you got it horribly wrong with one player, doesn't mean that you can't get it right with others.
Click to expand...

If you have player, who generally speaking has got the best test average of any player for his country for years - (Who else has averaged 50 for England in recent times) you don't start pissing about with him too much. I'd agree with BA that working on mentality is possible, but it's got to be gradual and I suppose, actually the more I discuss it the more his 'that's just the way I play' comments trouble me....

Then again, they might just be bravado, designed to project a 'fuck you all, i don't care' attitude when perhaps, really he has discussed it all etc, which is fine. *straws clutched*
 
tangerinedream said:
I agree, Malcom made Harmison look like a heat seaking missile for a lot of the latter part of his test career but do you not think Malcom became a liability because they tried to change him?
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No, he was always a liability. That amazing performance against South Africa was, unfortunately, the exception rather than the rule. But Malcolm was something of a special case. He took up cricket late in life and was already quite old when he came into the test team. The older you get, the harder it is to change.
 
Saw that on sky news to, will be sad to see him go but its probably the right time given all his injuries. Mentioned it should happen earlier in the thread.
 
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