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tim said:
Yes, I social media makes a big difference. My point was just that the British state can be nastier than what we've seen today when it feels it needs to be. I'm sure the same will be true of future Catalan and Scottish states, and too.

As far as political own goals I was thinking of Easter 1916, too.
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Yeh. But more like burntollet bridge
 
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Kaka Tim said:
its jaw dropping. One striking thing is that the people being battered by the riot cops are not the sort of people who would normally demonstrate, agitate or generally do stuff which will put them into confrontation with the state - and that its happening all over - riot cops marching into villages and laying into the locals. And firefighters and local cops fighting the riot police?!? I mean they can hardly say its the usual suspects/"rent-a-mob" can they?
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That's what struck me earlier, not so easy to dismiss/ignore demonstrators when the people being beaten look like a snapshot of mainstream society. Great post.
 
Kaka Tim said:
its jaw dropping. One striking thing is that the people being battered by the riot cops are not the sort of people who would normally demonstrate, agitate or generally do stuff which will put them into confrontation with the state - and that its happening all over - riot cops marching into villages and laying into the locals. And firefighters and local cops fighting the riot police?!? I mean they can hardly say its the usual suspects/"rent-a-mob" can they?

as with trump - its shows just how fragile are the basic democratic rights that most people see as deep rooted and the "natural" state of things.

How does the spanish state row back from this?

So far there does not seem to any serious violence directed against the GC. Although the PP have tweeted a video of someone throwing a chair. Not quite up there with massed goons firing plastic bullets into peoples faces - but I suppose it will enable liberals to condemn "violence on all sides"
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They say nothing about the people battered but insist the police acted legally
 
So what are the practicalities of trying to get the votes counted? As there will be less counting places than there were voting stations, should be easier for the GC to stop them all, confiscate the ballots etc. And if we do get them counted and they declare independence, presumably the GC will go ahead and arrest Puigdemont et al?
 
Wilf said:
So what are the practicalities of trying to get the votes counted? As there will be less counting places than there were voting stations, should be easier for the GC to stop them all, confiscate the ballots etc. And if we do get them counted and they declare independence, presumably the GC will go ahead and arrest Puigdemont et al?
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They being counted and declared right now.
 
Wilf said:
So what are the practicalities of trying to get the votes counted? As there will be less counting places than there were voting stations, should be easier for the GC to stop them all, confiscate the ballots etc. And if we do get them counted and they declare independence, presumably the GC will go ahead and arrest Puigdemont et al?
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The result now irrelevant as the spanish state made it a leave vote as no one in Catalonia, pro or anti-independence, will defend the spanish state's response
 
mather said:
"The Russians did it" has become the default excuse for the elites of the Western world, from liberals in the US to the government of Spain and it's supporters.
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It's odd that the area where russia is guilty - syria - is missing from the list of those pointing out the russia excuse. The single one where it actually has impact - where it has killed thousands of civilians and helped kill a revolution. Almost like they're the flipside of blame russia types.
 
J Ed said:
Spanish media doing the obnoxious 'it was the Russians wot did it, nothing is our fault' thing Pro-Russian networks see 2,000% increase in activity in favor of Catalan referendum
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The Russians are bound to pick up on the shit and they love encouraging it but its funny that the suggestion not to give them the ammunition to do it is rarely suggested.

"oh they are retweeting people being beaten up" seldom seems to have the answer to the Russian tweets being "don't beat people up then you fuck nuggets"
 
Wilf said:
So what are the practicalities of trying to get the votes counted? As there will be less counting places than there were voting stations, should be easier for the GC to stop them all, confiscate the ballots etc. And if we do get them counted and they declare independence, presumably the GC will go ahead and arrest Puigdemont et al?
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The practicalities are less relevant than the fact that it could never be classed as in anyway as free and fair. That's clearly the fault/tactic of the Spanish state, but it's a fact nevertheless.
 
For what it's worth, my reading of the heavy handed spanish state intervention is that it was intended to support the institutional and popular elements of the catalan state/people who don't support independence and who didn't support the referendum. The opposition that didn't agree with it being held or the way it was held and those who though that having it was a democratic right but didn't want to get involved or thought it offered a mandate or imperative. It was supposed to drive a hard wedge between them and the 100% nationalists by showing that all sorts of disruption would take place for a long time. On the ground the police were obv told they would have no come-back and it looks like they did what often happens when people want to - or mistakenly - escalate things: put people who don't know where they are in what they are told are dangerous situations and give them weapons and carte blanche.
 
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A lot of those CG just don't look like they're in control of themselves, just lashing out angrily in all directions, no strategy or order. It's like a brawl outside a pub. Shit cops.

That one leaping down several stairs to stamp on someone is possibly the worst thing I've seen of it today.
 
Rajoy's speech - deputised by the soft cop of sanchez is, of course, a demand to take it off the streets - get some face to face top-level dialogue. Given that the whole nationalist gamble was to take it onto the streets to get that dialogue - they don't really want a popular rebellion - they've got some things today.
 
butchersapron said:
For what it's worth, my reading of the heavy handed spanish state intervention is that it was intended to support the institutional and popular elements of the catalan state/people who don't support independence and who didn't support the referendum. The opposition that didn't agree with it being held or the way it was held and those who though that having it was a democratic right but didn't want to get involved or thought it offered a mandate or imperative. It was supposed to drive a hard wedge between them and the 100% nationalists by showing that all sorts of disruption would take place for a long time. On the ground the police were obv told they would have no come-back and it looks like they did what often happens when people want to - or mistakenly - escalate things: put people who don't know where they are in what they are told are dangerous situations and give them weapons and carte blanche.
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I don't even think it was as thought out as that. You're giving Rajoy too much credit. It's just the party's DNA spurting out even harder than we expectated.
 
Dogsauce said:
A lot of those CG just don't look like they're in control of themselves, just lashing out angrily in all directions, no strategy or order. It's like a brawl outside a pub. Shit cops.

That one leaping down several stairs to stamp on someone is possibly the worst thing I've seen of it today.
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This is a feature of their policing at most demonstrations, as well as Champions League games, and other assorted events. Equal treatment for Catalans here at least.
 
My partner is Spanish ( not Catalan). Been watching footage of demos with her. One in Madrid opposing referendum and Catalan independence. She pointed out to me the flags and song they were singing was from the Franco period. Points out to me people giving Franco salutes.

As she said some of this goes back to Civil War. Catalan nationalists fought on republican side in Civil War. Franco suppressed Catalan language and culture. I think she supports referendum as those opposing it are the heirs to Franco. Her family were on Republican side in Civil War. Socialist not CP or anarchist.

She says in Spsin issues like Catalan nationalism are still affected by legacy of Civil War. Politicians on the right are often from Francoist families.

I was watching with her some of the demos on TV leading up to the vote. She said in one they were chanting slogan from the Spanish Civil War. Supporting the Catalans.

So what Im saying is that there is a background to what's been happening.

The Guardia Civil in her view were behaving like Francoist police.

I don't think my partner wants Spain broken up. But thinks the Spanish state is still behaving with Catalan nationalism like Franco did.
 
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