So why does Israel do what it does?

[durruti02]

People quite rightly are quick to attack israel for its attacks on gaza or hamas .. but while we mostly agree that the israeli state is extreme nationalist quasi fascist i do not think many really wish to understand why this has arisen ..

why did the community minded land loving groups of zionists fleeing from anti semitism and later the holocaust ended up like this?

this understanding IS crucial as until you understand WHY Israel acts like this, they will not stop ..

what do i think? that anti semitism continues throughout the world, individually ( and we even see it on here ) and in govts, e.g. Iran and that until jewish people wherever they live feel they are secure wherever they live they will support and bankroll israel

zionism and and hamas are the same thing .. ultra nationalist reactions to racism and fascism .. they will only go away IF there is an alternative .. Israel thinks they can defeat hamas .. they can not .. and hamas thinks they can defeat israel .. they can not

but also fundamentally though while america thinks it can rule the world they will use israel to encourage nationalism and racism rather than unity

to stop this sad cycle we must do what we can to change society where we live in the hope that one day that will change the forces that currently drive these two peoples at each other

 

[spring-peeper]

coz it can

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Becuase it is a client state of a superpower and can get away with it.

 

[durruti02]

but why are they not cuddly and fluffy?

 

[frogwoman]

because of the circumstances of israel's creation, it means that they cannot be. making a "Jewish state" in Palestine where there was already an existing population could only ever mean one thing.

 

[durruti02]

because of the circumstances of israel's creation, it means that they cannot be. making a "Jewish state" in Palestine where there was already an existing population could only ever mean one thing.

yes i kinda of agree but there are arab villages with high standards of living .. but my point is WHY did this arise? why did the jews thnk they should ahve this country? here in palestine?

 

[gentlegreen]

Moses

 

[joevsimp]

they have never lost a war,there is a school of thought saying that "war should be as bloody and terrible (to both sides) as possible, to ensure that it is only resorted to as a last resort"

these air-raids are nowhere near the last resort, but Israel is able to act with impunity due their relationship with the US, and knows no better because it has acted like htis since its foundation, but has never gotten the bloddy nose it could do with to take it down a peg or two

 

[frogwoman]

yes i kinda of agree but there are arab villages with high standards of living .. but my point is WHY did this arise? why did the jews thnk they should ahve this country? here in palestine?

who says the arab villages have a high standard of living? israel?

and compared to where?

a number of reasons, anti-semitism certainly being one of them. however, ultra-nationalist zionism arose at the same time (the latter half of the 19th century) as other nationalist movements within europe.

it also developed at the same time as the "scramble for africa" between britain and other colonial powers. when you think about who the early non-jewish supporters of zionism were and the rationale the zionists gave to these men for supporting it, you can't view zionism in the same way as other liberation movements.

why palestine? because the majority of jews would never have supported a jewish homeland in say uganda, the land of israel is hugely important in judaism and jewish culture as a whole.

 

[Spion]

but why are they not cuddly and fluffy?

because they chose to colonise a land that had people in it. From very early on Zionists spoke freely of the need to transfer the existing population. Not unlike what happened in America and Australia. It's a racist, colonising ideology

 

[durruti02]

they have never lost a war,there is a school of thought saying that "war should be as bloody and terrible (to both sides) as possible, to ensure that it is only resorted to as a last resort"

these air-raids are nowhere near the last resort, but Israel is able to act with impunity due their relationship with the US, and knows no better because it has acted like htis since its foundation, but has never gotten the bloddy nose it could do with to take it down a peg or two

but they have lost a 'war' ... since the maccabi's the jews have lost about every 'fight' they were involved with .. they have been massacred over and over and over again culminating in the holocaust when c6 million were massacred in an attempted genocide in europe

so yes israel has said they will never lose again ..

i think their tactic is wrong but that is the psychological reason

 

[durruti02]

because they chose to colonise a land that had people in it. From very early on Zionists spoke freely of the need to transfer the existing population. Not unlike what happened in America and Australia. It's a racist, colonising ideology

so jews are just racists and colonialists? do they not have a right to a homeland? everyone does surely?

 

[frogwoman]

but they have lost a 'war' ... since the maccabi's the jews have lost about every 'fight' they were involved with .. they have been massacred over and over and over again culminating in the holocaust when c6 million were massacred in an attempted genocide in europe

so yes israel has said they will never lose again ..

i think their tactic is wrong but that is the psychological reason

that is definitely a huge factor in why zionism enjoys continued support.

 

[frogwoman]

so jews are just racists and colonialists? do they not have a right to a homeland? everyone does surely?

learn the difference between judaism and zionism.

 

[Spion]

yes i kinda of agree but there are arab villages with high standards of living ..

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7723667&postcount=13

Some key facts:

* Arab citizens make up 20% of Israel’s population

* But, only get 5% of funds from the development budget and 3% of funds from regular government budget.

* Only 6% of government employees are Arab

* Only 3.5% of land is owned by Arabs

* Israel’s overall poverty levels - 17.1% in 2001 (up from 20.2% in 2005)

* Percentage of Arab families living in poverty 54% in 2006 (up from 52% in 2005)

* Poverty among Jewish families has decreased from 15.9% of families in 2005 to 14.7% in 2006

 

[Spion]

learn the difference between judaism and zionism.

/\/\/\/\ This

 

[durruti02]

learn the difference between judaism and zionism.

i think i do .. what is your point?

 

[durruti02]

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7723667&postcount=13

.. relative to syria, eygpt, iraq and other surrounding arab countries ..

 

[frogwoman]

i think i do .. what is your point?

my point is that the "right" to a territory doesn't mean chucking out people who already live there does it? the fact that zionism from the beginning advocated taking the whole of the land of palestine and turning it into a Jewish homeland meant that "transfer" was always inherent in that ideology.

 

[Spion]

so jews are just racists and colonialists? do they not have a right to a homeland? everyone does surely?

Not all jews are Zionists. And not all Zionists are jews

 

[durruti02]

my point is that the "right" to a territory doesn't mean chucking out people who already live there does it? the fact that zionism from the beginning advocated taking the whole of the land of palestine and turning it into a Jewish homeland meant that "transfer" was always inherent in that ideology.

yes of course though i do not beliece all zionists believed this .. in fact many thought they could buy land ( and did so legitimately .. until later most land was bought legitimately if you accept landlordism and peoples lives/land being sold behind their backs) ) and live peacefully side by side with the arab and christian palestinians ..

but you accept jews have a right to be in palestine?

 

[durruti02]

Not all jews are Zionists. And not all Zionists are jews

oh jeez you really think i do not know that? lol

 

[Spion]

oh jeez you really think i do not know that? lol

I can only take you on what you write, not being a mind reader, like. And you wrote this:

so jews are just racists and colonialists? do they not have a right to a homeland? everyone does surely?

 

[Spion]

but you accept jews have a right to be in palestine?

Yes. But with equal rights, not privileges, not killing people and stealing land and property

 

[durruti02]

I can only take you on what you write, not being a mind reader, like. And you wrote this:

except we had this discussion before .. but you may have forgotten so whatever

and what is wrong with what i wrote?

 

[durruti02]

Yes. But with equal rights, not privileges, not killing people and stealing land and property

yes we can agree here .. but what people have not done this? america did it to the native amercians, the brits wiped out the tasmanians, the sunni want shia land the chinese wnat tibet, the turks wiped out the armenians, the spanish rule the basques the catalans etc, when italy was founded most dod not speak italian, my fathers tongue and culture was nearly destroyed etc etc etc .. ( i could write pages on the wrongs of nationalism )

SO WHY can the jews in Israel not have their own nationalism? why can they not behave as everyone else does?

 

[purplex]

People quite rightly are quick to attack israel for its attacks on gaza or hamas .. but while we mostly agree that the israeli state is extreme nationalist quasi fascist i do not think many really wish to understand why this has arisen ..

why did the community minded land loving groups of zionists fleeing from anti semitism and later the holocaust ended up like this?

this understanding IS crucial as until you understand WHY Israel acts like this, they will not stop ..

what do i think? that anti semitism continues throughout the world, individually ( and we even see it on here ) and in govts, e.g. Iran and that until jewish people wherever they live feel they are secure wherever they live they will support and bankroll israel

zionism and and hamas are the same thing .. ultra nationalist reactions to racism and fascism .. they will only go away IF there is an alternative .. Israel thinks they can defeat hamas .. they can not .. and hamas thinks they can defeat israel .. they can not

but also fundamentally though while america thinks it can rule the world they will use israel to encourage nationalism and racism rather than unity

to stop this sad cycle we must do what we can to change society where we live in the hope that one day that will change the forces that currently drive these two peoples at each other

What a load of horseshit, nothing i do will prevent palestinians from attacking israel and israel responding, which is what happened - israel didnt act without reason, there is no issue over there that cant be resolved by sitting around a table so why the constant attacks on israel, why invite israel to attack, we all know what the outcome of that is.

 

[bingiman]

A lot of it is down to how far back in history the land was stolen - while the people whose land you stole are still alive nationalism is probably going to be a pretty ugly beast

 

[dylanredefined]

Well probably the belief its their land in the first place .And that they are sourronded by enemies .Not to mention "never again"Even if America decided Israel wasen't worth supporting I dont think they would just go under .Rhodesia didn't South africa didn't .Cuba hasen't neither has North korea.

 

[Wolveryeti]

Nations founded by violent cunts tend to fetishise violent cunts.