People of Merthyr give Ian Duncan Smith a reality check

[phildwyer]

at least it ain't snide smug shite

You'll not deny that I raise an intriguing ethico-political issue though.

If one is truly certain that a battle is lost, is there really any moral justification for continuing to fight it? Must we not conclude at some point that the urge to continue the struggle is pathological and in all probability egocentric in nature?

 

[Gromit]

No, you fuck off. Or come up with a better answer.

You're not from South Wales anyway.

Is that the criteria? Cool, I qualify and so...

Fuck off Dwyer

I work in Merthyr. Millions has been spent in regenerating the area in recent times. Money poured down the drain I'm sad to report. All thanks to bankers screwing the economy and the Tories yanking away public sector employment opportunities to pay for it (which it won't).

 

[LLETSA]

However we do make things in the UK, we make cars, we have a thriving car industry, Honda, BMW, Land Rover, Nissan etc all make cars in the UK. British workers can build top quality cars, British managers can build quality cars, the problem is that British financiers cannot run top quality British car plants. All the plants I mentioned are foreign owned, the failure in British industry is at the financiers level that is why we have a thriving British car industry but none of it is British owned!



It is going to be difficult to put the genie of globalisation back in its box if you really want to go back to making things again. (which I want) But with the advent of automation it should be possible to build things in the UK at a profit, perhaps not mass market things totally but certainly slightly more niche things. But automation means fewer low skilled jobs, but more engineers and the like.

As long as the bulk of those things can be made more cheaply elsewhere, they will be made elsewhere. That's how capitalism works.

 

[phildwyer]

Lol. What you doing now Phil?

Oh, I daresay used to think as you do, when I was your age.

You are sixteen, right?

 

[DotCommunist]

The problem as I see it is that they are destroying the people of Methyr and like well before they destroy themselves.

you asked for the alternative to revolution

 

[Plumdaff]

The problem is that most people confuse realism with defeatism.

Darlington FC will never reach the dizzy heights of the Premier League. Is that defeatism or realism?

Neither will Blackpool.

What you and dwyer are advocating is that all but the Premier Clubs give up and stop playing football.

The problem arises when your "realism" gives way to abject, utter defeatism - which is what both of you seem to advocate. The one sure way of being defeated is to stop the struggle.

 

[phildwyer]

I work in Merthyr.

They really are doomed now.

 

[dennisr]

You'll not deny that I raise an intriguing ethico-political issue though.

If one is truly certain that a battle is lost, is there really any moral justification for continuing to fight it? Must we not conclude at some point that the urge to continue the struggle is pathological and in all probability egocentric in nature?

I will deny that.

If the battle is lost why do you feel the need to bother attacking those you feel have such 'pathological' illusions?

You should take a closer look at your own glass house before throwing stones at the folk you see outside of it.

 

[Streathamite]

No, it isn't going to happen. And people aren't going to -- aren't able to -- leave. Which means that the outcome will be a downward spiral that leaves the people in these town ever more bereft of most things that should be their birthright. OK? Things are hopeless, we get that.

Doesn't mean we can't talk about what should be done. Because if there is one way to absolutely guarantee nothing ever improves, it's to not even bother trying to work out what the best options should be.

/\/\/\
This.You either roll over and surrender-or fight back

 

[YouSir]

The problem is that most people confuse realism with defeatism.

Darlington FC will never reach the dizzy heights of the Premier League. Is that defeatism or realism?

Blinkered defeatism I'd say, after all the Premiership is, in the grand scheme of things, still a fairly new innovation and one day, perhaps in the not too distant, it'll either radically change or even cease to exist. Times change, the status quo changes, hence other people still believing/giving a toss, they're aware of that potential. And they're aware that it's better to invest in that potential and follow a path they feel is right than to just shrug and give up.

 

[phildwyer]

And to Dwyer and the Defeatists, your basic answer is that nothing'll change so why bother even considering it I take it?

I'd say: change your own life, if you can, because there is no possibility of improving collective life.

I wish I could say something different, but I'd be lying.

 

[kabbes]

It's manifestly stupid to say that nothing can change. To pick just one recent example, did those in the Soviet regime in 1979 really think that their system would collapse within 10 years?

 

[LLETSA]

a) People have to want things to change
b) People have to have a clear view of the result of change
c) People have to have a clear roadmap of how the change will happen.

'People' will always fail to agree in one way or another, especially in this era of media manipulation and information overload, even if the bulk of a population can sometimes agree at a certain point in time. And so I'd add a fourth factor for, as you put it, effective change rather than cosmetic change: you need to get rid of the means of manipulating societies. Which is, of course, all but impossible.

 

[YouSir]

I'd say: change your own life, if you can, because there is no possibility of improving collective life.

I wish I could say something different, but I'd be lying.

That's bollocks though really, isn't it? Historically blind bollocks.

 

[Streathamite]

Are there ways other then revolution and lining the middle class up outside M&S that could achieve this?

NO.

 

[dennisr]

I'd say: change your own life, if you can, because there is no possibility of improving collective life.

I wish I could say something different, but I'd be lying.

"I'm alright jack"

 

[phildwyer]

Blinkered defeatism I'd say, after all the Premiership is, in the grand scheme of things, still a fairly new innovation and one day, perhaps in the not too distant, it'll either radically change or even cease to exist.

Probably when Cardiff City get promoted.

 

[Streathamite]

It's manifestly stupid to say that nothing can change. To pick just one recent example, did those in the Soviet regime in 1979 really think that their system would collapse within 10 years?

Or the tunisians,2 years ago?

 

[phildwyer]

"I'm alright jack"

Better than: "over the top!"

 

[kabbes]

Frankly, phil, my life is fine. My garden is tended. So am I now allowed to consider how collective life could be better ordered to achieve a higher degree of wellbeing for all?

 

[weltweit]

As long as the bulk of those things can be made more cheaply elsewhere, they will be made elsewhere. That's how capitalism works.

But we have a thriving car industry, it is just that it is foreign owned.

And I don't think state ownership is the answer, in the days of British Leyland that company was state owned and it produced awful products that no one wanted and ended up as a failure. I think most examples from around the world where car companies have been state owned they have met the same fate, awful products.

The companies that presently own the British car industry have knowhow from generations of producing cars, Toyota, BMW, Ford, Nissan etc they are just quietly getting on with making good quality products that people want. And they are doing that with British workers and managers and unions, there is nothing wrong with a British workforce. The failure if there has been one is at the corporate finance level, British financiers have failed to successfully own a successful car maker.

 

[phildwyer]

Frankly, phil, my life is fine. My garden is tended. So am I now allowed to consider how collective life could be better ordered to achieve a higher degree of wellbeing for all?

As long as you do it in Merthyr.

 

[LLETSA]

Neither will Blackpool.

What you and dwyer are advocating is that all but the Premier Clubs give up and stop playing football.

The problem arises when your "realism" gives way to abject, utter defeatism - which is what both of you seem to advocate. The one sure way of being defeated is to stop the struggle.

Historically a bigger club anyway. And there will always be very few clubs doing a Blackpool.

In any case, Dwyer and I are not arguing exactly the same thing. As I said above, as long as the working class exists there will always be working class struggle. What changes are the possibilities and the outcome. Theoretically, the outcome could turn positive, but most of what looms on the horizon suggest not. It actually suggests that most people on earth will probably not be here much longer.

 

[LLETSA]

Blinkered defeatism I'd say, after all the Premiership is, in the grand scheme of things, still a fairly new innovation and one day, perhaps in the not too distant, it'll either radically change or even cease to exist. Times change, the status quo changes, hence other people still believing/giving a toss, they're aware of that potential. And they're aware that it's better to invest in that potential and follow a path they feel is right than to just shrug and give up.

Why can't people read what others actually write?

 

[weltweit]

Basically, if you can't move people to the jobs, because there aren't enough, you have to take jobs to the people. This has been going on in South Wales for years, both with private industry and state agencies.

But so far it has not been enough. Will it ever be?

 

[dennisr]

Better than: "over the top!"

You seem to assume that it 'black' or 'white' phil - I guess straw men are easier to pithily 'put in their place'

Ah, well - I guess its what makes you feel 'comfortable' (although not comfortable enough to stop wasting your time attacking the concerns and attempts of others to improve the collective lot of the supposedly 'hopeless' cases). At least it keeps a bigger distance between you and those 'hopeless' cases. (ha - we can all do a bit of cod-psychology phil)

as with kabbes - my life is fine - doing well. I'm careful not to risk getting shot down without good reason - like most thinking people. Does not mean I ignore those are arn't having it quite so easy or do nothing about it. "There but for the grace of god" (and feckin long hours...)

 

[phildwyer]

Ah, well - I guess its what makes you feel 'comfortable'

It doesn't make me feel comfortable at all. It distresses me.

 

[LLETSA]

But we have a thriving car industry, it is just that it is foreign owned.

And I don't think state ownership is the answer, in the days of British Leyland that company was state owned and it produced awful products that no one wanted and ended up as a failure. I think most examples from around the world where car companies have been state owned they have met the same fate, awful products.

The companies that presently own the British car industry have knowhow from generations of producing cars, Toyota, BMW, Ford, Nissan etc they are just quietly getting on with making good quality products that people want. And they are doing that with British workers and managers and unions, there is nothing wrong with a British workforce. The failure if there has been one is at the corporate finance level, British financiers have failed to successfully own a successful car maker.

Nobody denies that there's still industry here. What we're talking about is the fact that it now employs few people, and that where it's disappeared it leaves behind a wasteland full of broken lives.

 

[Plumdaff]

LLETSA, I have read what you've written.

Given the urgency of the situation, and the odds of defeat, do you think it's better to bemoan those odds, and the challenge ahead, and belittle any chance of success, or to engage in whatever way you can in the struggle? Which action do you think is more likely to affect change?

 

[sihhi]

the public, who would be manipulated into backing the vested interests.

First let me apologise on behalf of myself, my family and my public for being so thick, backing vested interests and being incapable of ever learning from anything.
Sorry.

To answer your question quickly, as many of the ordinary people as possible have to make the vested interests suffer, lose their comfort, peace of mind, money etc then changes will be happening. Mass democratic struggle.

Also if you don't want to defeatist then you have to work on it yourself, no magic from an internet bubble or a tiny organisation will do it for you.