People of Merthyr give Ian Duncan Smith a reality check

[dennisr]

It doesn't make me feel comfortable at all. It distresses me.

so that's why you feel the need to distance yourself and write people off - make out like they are not as 'canny' and 'knowing' as you?

weird thing is - I'm pretty cynical myself on occasion - the experience of 20+ years of back-pedaling, small limited victories only partially masking a series of major defeats that the majority of people on this wee island have faced. but that's just a miniscule part of a much bigger timeline and a much bigger planet which we are all part of.

Just at this moment though - for the first moment in a long time - the 'trendy' cynicism (sometimes part of masking either self-interest and/or lack of confidence in wider society, sometimes an understandable two-fingers to what feels like a 'hopeless'/powerless situation) feels so-out of place with what is going on around you. Just little shoots - but important one's - and no its not any deluded internet lefties spouting quotes from che - its very ordinary folk finding all the bollocks they have been forced to swallow for so damn long no longer equating to their lived realities. Now that could go in all sorts of directions and, yep, it could go completely pear-shaped. But I'm willing to do my bit to try and ensure it does move in the right direction.

Just at this moment that previously 'trendy' cynicism just sounds not so very different from the real hard-nosed cynicism of evil feckers running the show - destroying communities, familiies, individuals in the name of 'looking after themselves' and their class.

 

[sihhi]

I'd say: change your own life, if you can, because there is no possibility of improving collective life.
I wish I could say something different, but I'd be lying.

If you wanted to you'd join the struggle, there's going to be a sector-wide strike in many of Turkey's metal-based factories by Birlesik Metal.

I'd say working on improving collective life will improve your own life way more than you realise.

 

[phildwyer]

so that's why you feel the need to distance yourself and write people off make out like they are not as 'canny' and 'knowing' as you?

I never attack anyone unless I'm attacked first.

It's true that things can change very suddenly, and in unexpected ways. For all I know Merthyr could be the capital of the People's Republic of Wales in five years time. But still, I'd advise the people who made this film to leave. I think anyone who'd advise them otherwise does them a disservice, for their own selfish reasons.

 

[weltweit]

I know someone who would have loved this thread: johnathanbishop

 

[phildwyer]

I know someone who would have loved this thread: johnathanbishop

See? He stayed in South Wales. In fact he was elected by the people of South Wales as their representative. Democratically.

 

[Fruitloop]

A retreat requires a rearguard action if it's not to become a rout. Also, the only reliable way to abandon collective action and secure your own position is to become a capitalist yourself, which is easier said than done. All other routes rely either on collective bargaining indirectly, or on some more-or-less ephemeral utility to capital.

 

[IMR]

I never attack anyone unless I'm attacked first.

Now that's not entirely true is it?

 

[Plumdaff]

I never attack anyone unless I'm attacked first.

It's true that things can change very suddenly, and in unexpected ways. For all I know Merthyr could be the capital of the People's Republic of Wales in five years time. But still, I'd advise the people who made this film to leave. I think anyone who'd advise them otherwise does them a disservice, for their own selfish reasons.

I don't know those women, I don't know their social obligations and ties, so I think it would be enormously selfish for me to advise them to do anything, particularly as they just produced a very powerful film about the reasons why people in places like Merthyr can't just up and leave. Whatever they decided to do personally (and I'm sure we'd all wish them well wherever) I'd hope they keep making films and retaining an interest in the people around them and their struggle. They certainly seem interested in finding answers for their entire community rather than themselves as individuals.

 

[phildwyer]

I don't know those women, I don't know their social obligations and ties, so I think it would be enormously selfish for me to advise them to do anything, particularly as they just produced a very powerful film about the reasons why people in places like Merthyr can't just up and leave. Whatever they decided to do personally (and I'm sure we'd all wish them well wherever) I'd hope they keep making films and retaining an interest in the people around them and their struggle. They certainly seem interested in finding answers for their entire community rather than themselves as individuals.

All true. It's a great film.

 

[Streathamite]

i know someone who would have loved this thread: Johnathanbishop

AAARRGGHHH!

 

[LLETSA]

LLETSA, I have read what you've written.

Given the urgency of the situation, and the odds of defeat, do you think it's better to bemoan those odds, and the challenge ahead, and belittle any chance of success, or to engage in whatever way you can in the struggle? Which action do you think is more likely to affect change?

The two aren't mutually exclusive (although I haven't beliitled anything.)

 

[LLETSA]

It's manifestly stupid to say that nothing can change. To pick just one recent example, did those in the Soviet regime in 1979 really think that their system would collapse within 10 years?

The Soviet regime fell because the most influential wing of that regime decided to put an end to the Soviet experiment. If they hadn't, it would still be with us in however altered a form.

In any case, its fall was part of the process of neo-liberal triumph which has resulted in the very conditions over which people here are wringing their hands. In the former USSR it left tens of millions destiute and saw life expectancy plummet to 57 for males.

 

[LLETSA]

/\/\/\
This.You either roll over and surrender-or fight back

What I've been trying to get people to talk about is the prospects for such a fightback. So far nobody's even been able to say what it consists of, let alone how the remedies could be enacted. So far it's all empty rah, rah, rah.

 

[kabbes]

I wasn't opining on whether its fall was a good thing or not, nor how the change was handled. Just the fact that a surprising amount of change can happen with a surprising turn of speed and opacity.

 

[Plumdaff]

The two aren't mutually exclusive (although I haven't beliitled anything.)

Every time someone on this thread talks positively, you seem to pop up to belittle it's chances of ever happening. I can understand that that isn't because you're against the alternative, but I do think (hugely paraphrasing) "we're all doomed, it won't ever change" is a perverse strategy for struggle.

 

[LLETSA]

First let me apologise on behalf of myself, my family and my public for being so thick, backing vested interests and being incapable of ever learning from anything.
Sorry.

To answer your question quickly, as many of the ordinary people as possible have to make the vested interests suffer, lose their comfort, peace of mind, money etc then changes will be happening. Mass democratic struggle.

Also if you don't want to defeatist then you have to work on it yourself, no magic from an internet bubble or a tiny organisation will do it for you.

Did I call anybody thick? Get off your high horse. Even the most intelligent of people can be manipulated, not least because, like anybody else, they often want to be manipulated. And thanks to today's media saturated society it's easier to do than ever before.

What you say about mass democratic struggle is yet more rah, rah, rah stuff. How do you see the kind of change that's necessary coming about? How do you see it prevented from being immediately undermined? How can it, in today's kind of society, not rest on very flimsy foundations?

 

[Steel Icarus]

What I've been trying to get people to talk about is the prospects for such a fightback. So far nobody's even been able to say what it consists of, let alone how the remedies could be enacted. So far it's all empty rah, rah, rah.

This:

There are three things that are needed for effective change:
a) People have to want things to change
b) People have to have a clear view of the result of change
c) People have to have a clear roadmap of how the change will happen.

I would add, though, that before these three things can happen, people need to know why a change is necessary. All a lot of people will be hearing at the moment is "feckless unemployed" this and "lazy scroungers" and "culture of entitlement" and "benefit fraud" that. Films like the one in the OP need to get to as many people as possible.

 

[LLETSA]

Every time someone on this thread talks positively, you seem to pop up to belittle it's chances of ever happening. I can understand that that isn't because you're against the alternative, but I do think (hugely paraphrasing) "we're all doomed, it won't ever change" is a perverse strategy for struggle.

Nobody on this thread has talked positively, unless you think there's something positive about saying 'struggle is necessary' without elaborating. Pointing out the obvious obstacles on the road ahead isn't being negative anyway.


When have I ever said 'We're doomed'? What does being doomed in the terms of this discussion actually mean?

 

[dennisr]

What I've been trying to get people to talk about is the prospects for such a fightback. So far nobody's even been able to say what it consists of, let alone how the remedies could be enacted. So far it's all empty rah, rah, rah.

as opposed to empty ah, ah, ah from you?
I don't see any ra ra fecking anything - all other folk have done is applaud people speaking out for themselves and their community - given that no-one else is.
Methyr is not an isolated island and solutions to Methyr's problems will not be found in Methyr alone. With have a rapidly developing mass anti-cuts movement across the UK. People in Methyr will have a strong stake in this movement.

 

[LLETSA]

I wasn't opining on whether its fall was a good thing or not, nor how the change was handled. Just the fact that a surprising amount of change can happen with a surprising turn of speed and opacity.

It can happen especially quickly when the regime itself manages the change with the help of the world's most powerful governments, businesses and multinational institutions.

When I was there in 1990-91 most people still seemed to be in the process of deciding whose side to be on (ie trying to guess who the winners would be). The ones who were thinking of still backing the regime had no belief in the ideology of the regime.

 

[Streathamite]

What I've been trying to get people to talk about is the prospects for such a fightback. So far nobody's even been able to say what it consists of, let alone how the remedies could be enacted. So far it's all empty rah, rah, rah.

In the long run,it's impossible to say.
Also,the "how" is more important than the "what odds?"

 

[Steel Icarus]

Nobody on this thread has talked positively, unless you think there's something positive about saying 'struggle is necessary' without elaborating. Pointing out the obvious obstacles on the road ahead isn't being negative anyway.


When have I ever said 'We're doomed'? What does being doomed in the terms of this discussion actually mean?

'People' will always fail to agree in one way or another, especially in this era of media manipulation and information overload, even if the bulk of a population can sometimes agree at a certain point in time. And so I'd add a fourth factor for, as you put it, effective change rather than cosmetic change: you need to get rid of the means of manipulating societies. Which is, of course, all but impossible.

As I said above, as long as the working class exists there will always be working class struggle. What changes are the possibilities and the outcome. Theoretically, the outcome could turn positive, but most of what looms on the horizon suggest not. It actually suggests that most people on earth will probably not be here much longer.

To use the examples of what's happened in North Africa lately, I'm not sure many of those people who went and protested day after day until their regimes collapsed had much idea of how a struggle would take place - only that it had to be carried out.

 

[weltweit]

Nobody denies that there's still industry here. What we're talking about is the fact that it now employs few people, and that where it's disappeared it leaves behind a wasteland full of broken lives.

Why then are we not creating new jobs at least at the rate that older jobs are going?

 

[LLETSA]

as opposed to empty ah, ah, ah from you?
I don't see any ra ra fecking anything - all other folk have done is applaud people speaking out for themselves and their community - given that no-one else is.
Methyr is not an isolated island and solutions to Methyr's problems will not be found in Methyr alone. With have a rapidly developing mass anti-cuts movement across the UK. People in Methyr will have a strong stake in this movement.

I never tried to suggest Merthyr can find its own solutions.

People have both applauded those in the film and indulged in the usual rah, rah, rah stuff, as any brief run through of the thread would reveal. Nobody is interested in awkward questions.

We might have a growing anti-cuts movement, but it is still unavoidably hampered by faith in Labour. And we know where that will lead.

And there is no prospect whatsoever of any alternative to Labour coming about, only the usual temporary alliance of dwindling left groups who hate each others guts and will never muster more than about 2% support at national level. This is the reality.

 

[LLETSA]

Why then are we not creating new jobs at least at the rate that older jobs are going?

New jobs were being created, at least until the crash of 2008. The problem is that most of them are call centre and McJobs, low-piad and with few workers' rights. They are no replacement for the old, unionised employment with (often) fair wages that went back into the local economy.

Hence the decline of places like Merthyr continues apace.

 

[LLETSA]

In the long run,it's impossible to say.
Also,the "how" is more important than the "what odds?"

It's always impossible to say, though, isn't it? It's an excellent way of avoiding any awkward questions.

 

[LLETSA]

This:



I would add, though, that before these three things can happen, people need to know why a change is necessary. All a lot of people will be hearing at the moment is "feckless unemployed" this and "lazy scroungers" and "culture of entitlement" and "benefit fraud" that. Films like the one in the OP need to get to as many people as possible.

This is what, quite possibly, a majority of people believe, even working class people who can see evidence to the contrary in front of their eyes.

As I said, it's due to the ease with which people can be manipulated.

 

[LLETSA]

To use the examples of what's happened in North Africa lately, I'm not sure many of those people who went and protested day after day until their regimes collapsed had much idea of how a struggle would take place - only that it had to be carried out.

Went and protested day after day against regimes where repression is naked and the manipulation blatant, with the support of much of the world's media and the backing of powerful western interests. In other words, societies quite different from the fickle, self-deluding one that ours has become. And nothing is so sure as they will end up with another bunch of thieves in power, even if those thieves have smiling faces. That's because, right across the world, with few exceptions, politics has been reduced to a choice between one bunch of thieves and another.

 

[sihhi]

Did I call anybody thick? Get off your high horse. Even the most intelligent of people can be manipulated, not least because, like anybody else, they often want to be manipulated. And thanks to today's media saturated society it's easier to do than ever before.

What you say about mass democratic struggle is yet more rah, rah, rah stuff. How do you see the kind of change that's necessary coming about? How do you see it prevented from being immediately undermined? How can it, in today's kind of society, not rest on very flimsy foundations?

LLETSA you accused the public of being so manipulable that they would line up with vested interests immediately, yet do you consider whether it's happening to you perhaps it's you that's being manipulated, perhaps it's the cynicism and defeatism of the media-saturated society that's turning you to deprecate

Accusing everyone of rah rah - that's all you've got nowadays.

You want everyone to give you a blueprint and then you can go and attack the blueprint makers for being mini-Trotskys.

You know as well as anyone that people are being punished for standing up, teachers who let their class go on the save ema protests, electrician sacked for exposing a boycott on the Olympics site. I've had my contract discontinued after strike action, I've had work shrivel up from an agency for the most basic of efforts. Right now all the good people of the country are being hunted down slowly but surely.
I agree that every year

You come out with stuff like this:

Darlington FC will never reach the dizzy heights of the Premier League. Is that defeatism or realism?

That's some nerve comparing people to Darlington, and mass action as winning a football league.

Why don't you discuss the merits of the IWCA's strategy for economic democracy if you want to, don't go 'everyone is so rah-rah' and do nothing about it. I know you're going to attack me anyway but that's not the LLETSA of old.

 

[Plumdaff]

Such organisations have no chance of being elected into government and if they did (or if other parties adopted large parts of their programmes), they would be prevented from carrying them out by both the immensely powerful vested interests who would have their operations impeded by such measures, and the public, who would be manipulated into backing the vested interests.

Theoretically, the outcome could turn positive, but most of what looms on the horizon suggest not. It actually suggests that most people on earth will probably not be here much longer.

Most of know the kind of thing that should be done-the problem is, the chances of most of it being enacted are around zero.

When have I ever said 'We're doomed'? What does being doomed in the terms of this discussion actually mean?

So far, costed manifestos, anti-cuts movements and any and all alternatives to Labour have been rubbished. Yet you deny even the merest hint of Private Frazer?

I'd have a lot more belief that you weren't just doom mongering if you had any proposals whatsoever yourself. Right, the media - what do you think we should do about that or is the only answer "we can't do anything" What do you think about alternative media, the use of Twitter in the Middle Eastern revolutions, Al Jazeera and so on?