People of Merthyr give Ian Duncan Smith a reality check

[LLETSA]

LLETSA you accused the public of being so manipulable that they would line up with vested interests immediately, yet do you consider whether it's happening to you perhaps it's you that's being manipulated, perhaps it's the cynicism and defeatism of the media-saturated society that's turning you to deprecate

Accusing everyone of rah rah - that's all you've got nowadays.

You want everyone to give you a blueprint and then you can go and attack the blueprint makers for being mini-Trotskys.

You know as well as anyone that people are being punished for standing up, teachers who let their class go on the save ema protests, electrician sacked for exposing a boycott on the Olympics site. I've had my contract discontinued after strike action, I've had work shrivel up from an agency for the most basic of efforts. Right now all the good people of the country are being hunted down slowly but surely.
I agree that every year

You come out with stuff like this:

That's some nerve comparing people to Darlington, and mass action as winning a football league.

Why don't you discuss the merits of the IWCA's strategy for economic democracy if you want to, don't go 'everyone is so rah-rah' and do nothing about it. I know you're going to attack me anyway but that's not the LLETSA of old.

I haven't accused anybody of anything. I gave an opinion based on how I see things. I have no doubt that I am as affected as anybody by the manipulation that goes on. Everybody is; all that differs is how they express it. The modern world became a trap a long time ago.

Why does everybody start going on about blueprints as soon as anybody asked a few questions that nobody can, or wants to, answer? It's infantile.

I know what people are going through at work and with the cuts etc. The firm where my wife works is in the process of cancelling sick pay completely. She is one of only about half a dozen in a union. But why does any of this make the kind of points I'm making irrelevant? I'd say it actually makes them more relevant: hello-real world calling and all that.

 

[dennisr]

We might have a growing anti-cuts movement, but it is still unavoidably hampered by faith in Labour. And we know where that will lead.

And there is no prospect whatsoever of any alternative to Labour coming about, only the usual temporary alliance of dwindling left groups who hate each others guts and will never muster more than about 2% support at national level. This is the reality.

If you were genuinely interested in raising the 'awkward questions' then I would suggest that this is not the right forum for it. Are you involved in the anti-cuts campaigns locally? - I would guess this is where your 'awkward questions' would be of some use - (as opposed to your usual ad hominum 'pointers' on lefty groups... - although I guess this is the perfect forum for a ready and sympathetic audience on that front). You know - of use in developing the tactics and strategies required to develop this movement in practice.

Remember the poll tax.

 

[nino_savatte]

I saw this on Lib Con. It needs to be shared by many. Fuck IDS and his"Arbeit Macht Frei" schtick.

 

[LLETSA]

So far, costed manifestos, anti-cuts movements and any and all alternatives to Labour have been rubbished. Yet you deny even the merest hint of Private Frazer?

I'd have a lot more belief that you weren't just doom mongering if you had any proposals whatsoever yourself. Right, the media - what do you think we should do about that or is the only answer "we can't do anything" What do you think about alternative media, the use of Twitter in the Middle Eastern revolutions, Al Jazeera and so on?

I haven't specifically rubbished anything. But what does any of this have to do with the fact that without a political alternative to the present state of affairs, the battle can never be won and victories along the way (rare as they are) sooner or later cancelled out? The so-called alternative media can't do a thing about that. Nor can it do anything about the fact that the world is running out of natural resources just at the historical moment that they're more in demand than ever. Etc etc. Why is it necessary to have 'proposals' to make these fairly obvious and commonplace observations?

 

[dennisr]

I know what people are going through at work and with the cuts etc. The firm where my wife works is in the process of cancelling sick pay completely. She is one of only about half a dozen in a union. But why does any of this make the kind of points I'm making irrelevant? I'd say it actually makes them more relevant: hello-real world calling and all that.

Aye - but given your concern for the real world - its thataway -------->

The "arn't I clever and asking awkward questions that you just cannot answer" schtick seems only slightly less infantile on this thread

Go on explain what you think is wrong in the present approach by the supposed "ra. ra" folk on this thread. Lets have a bit of a lead from the 'oh, so clever' guy

 

[LLETSA]

If you were genuinely interested in raising the 'awkward questions' then I would suggest that this is not the right forum for it. Are you involved in the anti-cuts campaigns locally? - I would guess this is where your 'awkward questions' would be of some use - (as opposed to your usual ad hominum 'pointers' on lefty groups... - although I guess this is the perfect forum for a ready and sympathetic audience on that front). You know - of use in developing the tactics and strategies required to develop this movement in practice.

Remember the poll tax.

Not the right forum? Jesus, you couldn't make it up.

An anti-cuts movement meeting is precisely not the place I'd consider raising these questions and would not blame somebody for kicking me out on my arse if I did. Jesus again.

 

[LLETSA]

Aye - but given your concern for the real world - its thataway -------->

The "arn't I clever and asking awkward questions that you just cannot answer" schtick seems only slightly less infantile on this thread

Go on explain what you think is wrong in the present approach by the supposed "ra. ra" folk on this thread. Lets have a bit of a lead from the 'oh, so clever' guy

All the way through I've explained what's wrong with it. It's content-free, that's what's wrong.

 

[dennisr]

I'd have a lot more belief that you weren't just doom mongering if you had any proposals whatsoever yourself. Right, the media - what do you think we should do about that or is the only answer "we can't do anything" What do you think about alternative media, the use of Twitter in the Middle Eastern revolutions, Al Jazeera and so on?

Better still LETSA - how about closer to home. Methyr, Anti-cuts take your pick - you give us your suggestions for a discussion. What your suggested alternatives are. After all, all folk ever get from you is what is not possible and why this is so. So what is possible?

 

[weltweit]

New jobs were being created, at least until the crash of 2008. The problem is that most of them are call centre and McJobs, low-piad and with few workers' rights. They are no replacement for the old, unionised employment with (often) fair wages that went back into the local economy.

Hence the decline of places like Merthyr continues apace.

But what we need, what Merthyr needs, is PLC sized companies to generate jobs now attracted there by whatever means, and local start ups which will eventually generate jobs in the future, in Merthyr now.

 

[dennisr]

It's content-free

GO on - take the floor - add some content

 

[dennisr]

Not the right forum? Jesus, you couldn't make it up.

An anti-cuts movement meeting is precisely not the place I'd consider raising these questions and would not blame somebody for kicking me out on my arse if I did. Jesus again.

Well if ALL you had to add to the discussion was "the lefties are all hopeless" I would not be surprised if you were told to piss off. I was expecting something more - some "content" - I've been waiting in anticipation for some content from you mate for a bloody long time - go on - take the floor - tell us all what we are doing wrong....

Add some content fella - now is your chance - you could even use some concrete examples from your own involvement in work in your locality - to help us to understand better your alternative ideas.

I should add - I think it is essential that folk listen to those who think outside the box - who do raise 'awkward questions' - It just want to find out what your 'awkward questions' and 'awkward answers' actually are

 

[LLETSA]

Remember the poll tax.

I do remember the Poll Tax. As it always seems necessary to say, it stands out as a working class victory in an era of defeat, and made no difference whatsoever to the trajectory of decline of the working class movement.

 

[LLETSA]

GO on - take the floor - add some content

I've tried to add content throughout by inserting the kind of questions nobody seems to want to hear. Would it be better to add some empty rhetoric or claptrap?

 

[LLETSA]

Better still LETSA - how about closer to home. Methyr, Anti-cuts take your pick - you give us your suggestions for a discussion. What your suggested alternatives are. After all, all folk ever get from you is what is not possible and why this is so. So what is possible?

Do you really not get it? I haven't got any alternatives. That's the whole problem, few people have and those that might have aren't generally heard. People seem to think I'm having a go at those fighting back. Really, I'm not.

I despair of all of you sometimes. No, actually it's all the time.

 

[flicy]

These cuts have nothing to do with the ability to have feelings, they are to do with the survival of this country & it's services of any kind. Blame the incompetent government that took us from the 4th largest ecconomy in the world to a near trillion in debt & public spending 25% more than the country earns. If this government doesn't cut this deficit you could end up being a whole lot worse off regardless who was in power. Labour pontificating from the sidelines on how to undo the mess they have left this country in without it effecting people is so unrealistic as to make me doubt the intelligence of those who swallow it hook line & sinker. If you listen to what they say instead of hearing only what you want to hear Labour are saying they would make exactly the same cuts in public spending, but over 7 years instead of 5. Big deal! do you really think 2 years is going to make one dot of difference other than increasing the massive interest on our deficit for longer. You make me sick, you are like spoiled children, common sense tells you that if you are grossly in debt & spending 25% more than you earn you would have to drastically cut your spending. But so long as it only effects someone else & not you is all I hear. There is not one form of cut that the government has announced that has not been apposed by the left. What do you think is going to get us out of the mess we are in, wishful thinking. No government wants to make cuts, raise taxes, or do anything that effects people. But sometimes they have absolutely no choice in the matter. You can be complacent about our national debt & deficit, because we have not quite gone over the edge like Ireland or Greece, but make no mistake we teetered & are far from out of the woods yet. Failure to reverse our fiscal dilemma could result in hardship such as you could never imagine in this country. So grow up.

 

[_angel_]

*huge text block troll generator*
I'm not reading that until you go and put some paragraphs into it. Actually, I'm not sure I'd be reading it anyway.

 

[creak]

These cuts have nothing to do with the ability to have feelings, they are to do with the survival of this country & it's services of any kind. Blame the incompetent government that took us from the 4th largest ecconomy in the world to a near trillion in debt & public spending 25% more than the country earns. If this government doesn't cut this deficit you could end up being a whole lot worse off regardless who was in power. Labour pontificating from the sidelines on how to undo the mess they have left this country in without it effecting people is so unrealistic as to make me doubt the intelligence of those who swallow it hook line & sinker. If you listen to what they say instead of hearing only what you want to hear Labour are saying they would make exactly the same cuts in public spending, but over 7 years instead of 5. Big deal! do you really think 2 years is going to make one dot of difference other than increasing the massive interest on our deficit for longer. You make me sick, you are like spoiled children, common sense tells you that if you are grossly in debt & spending 25% more than you earn you would have to drastically cut your spending. But so long as it only effects someone else & not you is all I hear. There is not one form of cut that the government has announced that has not been apposed by the left. What do you think is going to get us out of the mess we are in, wishful thinking. No government wants to make cuts, raise taxes, or do anything that effects people. But sometimes they have absolutely no choice in the matter. You can be complacent about our national debt & deficit, because we have not quite gone over the edge like Ireland or Greece, but make no mistake we teetered & are far from out of the woods yet. Failure to reverse our fiscal dilemma could result in hardship such as you could never imagine in this country. So grow up.

 

[Steel Icarus]

These cuts have nothing to do with the ability to have feelings, they are to do with the survival of this country & it's services of any kind. Blame the incompetent government that took us from the 4th largest ecconomy in the world to a near trillion in debt & public spending 25% more than the country earns. If this government doesn't cut this deficit you could end up being a whole lot worse off regardless who was in power. Labour pontificating from the sidelines on how to undo the mess they have left this country in without it effecting people is so unrealistic as to make me doubt the intelligence of those who swallow it hook line & sinker. If you listen to what they say instead of hearing only what you want to hear Labour are saying they would make exactly the same cuts in public spending, but over 7 years instead of 5. Big deal! do you really think 2 years is going to make one dot of difference other than increasing the massive interest on our deficit for longer. You make me sick, you are like spoiled children, common sense tells you that if you are grossly in debt & spending 25% more than you earn you would have to drastically cut your spending. But so long as it only effects someone else & not you is all I hear. There is not one form of cut that the government has announced that has not been apposed by the left. What do you think is going to get us out of the mess we are in, wishful thinking. No government wants to make cuts, raise taxes, or do anything that effects people. But sometimes they have absolutely no choice in the matter. You can be complacent about our national debt & deficit, because we have not quite gone over the edge like Ireland or Greece, but make no mistake we teetered & are far from out of the woods yet. Failure to reverse our fiscal dilemma could result in hardship such as you could never imagine in this country. So grow up.

Too long, didn't read, fuck off, you insufferable leaking pustule on the glans of he-who-walks-backwards.

 

[phildwyer]

These cuts have nothing to do with the ability to have feelings, they are to do with the survival of this country & it's services of any kind. Blame the incompetent government that took us from the 4th largest ecconomy in the world to a near trillion in debt & public spending 25% more than the country earns. If this government doesn't cut this deficit you could end up being a whole lot worse off regardless who was in power. Labour pontificating from the sidelines on how to undo the mess they have left this country in without it effecting people is so unrealistic as to make me doubt the intelligence of those who swallow it hook line & sinker. If you listen to what they say instead of hearing only what you want to hear Labour are saying they would make exactly the same cuts in public spending, but over 7 years instead of 5. Big deal! do you really think 2 years is going to make one dot of difference other than increasing the massive interest on our deficit for longer. You make me sick, you are like spoiled children, common sense tells you that if you are grossly in debt & spending 25% more than you earn you would have to drastically cut your spending. But so long as it only effects someone else & not you is all I hear. There is not one form of cut that the government has announced that has not been apposed by the left. What do you think is going to get us out of the mess we are in, wishful thinking. No government wants to make cuts, raise taxes, or do anything that effects people. But sometimes they have absolutely no choice in the matter. You can be complacent about our national debt & deficit, because we have not quite gone over the edge like Ireland or Greece, but make no mistake we teetered & are far from out of the woods yet. Failure to reverse our fiscal dilemma could result in hardship such as you could never imagine in this country. So grow up.

It is ironic that capitalists always present themselves as hard-headed realists, because the world of money, credit and debt to which the constantly appeal is made up entirely of fantasy and imagination and has no existence at all in the real world.

 

[dennisr]

I've tried to add content throughout by inserting the kind of questions nobody seems to want to hear. Would it be better to add some empty rhetoric or claptrap?

The only 'content' I have seen from you is a) some pithy comment about how unlikely it is there can be a struggle against the situation in Merthyr. Which just seems a obvious 'revelation' and one that ignores Methyrs connection to the rest of this island and b) the usual LLETSA party trick: "lefties are useless therefore the anti-cuts movement is probably doomed". Neither bits of content I think are that much of a revelation. I am tempted to think "at least Dwyer's sense of supperiority is stated baldly"

The poll tax was a test ground for precisely the sort of strategies we will have to employ on an even larger scale. You can either be involved or you can sit on urban making cynical remarks. The same sets of ideas will be tested as before - and yep, some will be found wanting. Again you can either assist in hammering out those ideas/approaches or you can sit on the sidelines and be ignored. The working class has not disappeared - its composition, strengths and weaknesses have changed - of course. It has not been decisively defeated though - fascism is not around the corner (I guess you would agree with this obvious point). To an extent in the UK we have to - in effect - re-build many organisations from scratch - from the ground up. That does not make it impossible just as what is happening in the Middle East is no longer impossible. But, again, just as you cannot look at Methyr in isolation - you cannot look at what is happening in the UK in isolation.

 

[LLETSA]

These cuts have nothing to do with the ability to have feelings, they are to do with the survival of this country & it's services of any kind. Blame the incompetent government that took us from the 4th largest ecconomy in the world to a near trillion in debt & public spending 25% more than the country earns. If this government doesn't cut this deficit you could end up being a whole lot worse off regardless who was in power. Labour pontificating from the sidelines on how to undo the mess they have left this country in without it effecting people is so unrealistic as to make me doubt the intelligence of those who swallow it hook line & sinker. If you listen to what they say instead of hearing only what you want to hear Labour are saying they would make exactly the same cuts in public spending, but over 7 years instead of 5. Big deal! do you really think 2 years is going to make one dot of difference other than increasing the massive interest on our deficit for longer. You make me sick, you are like spoiled children, common sense tells you that if you are grossly in debt & spending 25% more than you earn you would have to drastically cut your spending. But so long as it only effects someone else & not you is all I hear. There is not one form of cut that the government has announced that has not been apposed by the left. What do you think is going to get us out of the mess we are in, wishful thinking. No government wants to make cuts, raise taxes, or do anything that effects people. But sometimes they have absolutely no choice in the matter. You can be complacent about our national debt & deficit, because we have not quite gone over the edge like Ireland or Greece, but make no mistake we teetered & are far from out of the woods yet. Failure to reverse our fiscal dilemma could result in hardship such as you could never imagine in this country. So grow up.

Grow up? That little piece looks like it was written by a moderately intelligent eight year old.

Here you have it folks: an example of the manipulated and infantilised.

 

[phildwyer]

I am tempted to think "at least Dwyer's sense of supperiority is stated baldly"

I have no sense of superiority to anyone. This is a projection of your own making.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I have no sense of superiority to anyone.

Quite right too. That would be simply ridiculous.

 

[dennisr]

Do you really not get it? I haven't got any alternatives. That's the whole problem, few people have and those that might have aren't generally heard. People seem to think I'm having a go at those fighting back. Really, I'm not.

I despair of all of you sometimes. No, actually it's all the time.

So you are no different from Dwyer in reality? - it is in fact "all hopeless"? - at least he's upfront about it

Not even the tinsey winseyest confidence in the ability of ordinary people to be capable of being extraordinary on occasion? To work thing out for themselves on their own terms? Or has it always been manourerings among the top (like you pointed out in russia - I can only assume you see this as occuring in some sort of vacuam - with the rest of russian society as passive onlookers). Thing is I agree with lots of sensible points you make (and assume we agree on the underlying economic and social reasons for this...) for example about the changed nature of the labour party - of social democracy worldwide and about the realities of working class defeats. I just do not think that means that 'history' ends

 

[LLETSA]

The only 'content' I have seen from you is a) some pithy comment about how unlikely it is there can be a struggle against the situation in Merthyr. Which just seems a obvious 'revelation' and one that ignores Methyrs connection to the rest of this island and b) the usual LLETSA party trick: "lefties are useless therefore the anti-cuts movement is probably doomed". Neither bits of content I think are that much of a revelation. I am tempted to think "at least Dwyer's sense of supperiority is stated baldly"

The poll tax was a test ground for precisely the sort of strategies we will have to employ on an even larger scale. You can either be involved or you can sit on urban making cynical remarks. The same sets of ideas will be tested as before - and yep, some will be found wanting. Again you can either assist in hammering out those ideas/approaches or you can sit on the sidelines and be ignored. The working class has not disappeared - its composition, strengths and weaknesses have changed - of course. It has not been decisively defeated though - fascism is not around the corner (I guess you would agree with this obvious point). To an extent in the UK we have to - in effect - re-build many organisations from scratch - from the ground up. That does not make it impossible just as what is happening in the Middle East is no longer impossible. But, again, just as you cannot look at Methyr in isolation - you cannot look at what is happening in the UK in isolation.

I haven't said lefties are useless anywhere in this thread. I don't even believe all lefties are any more useless than anybody else. The problems of the radical left stem more from not recognising that it now exists in an historical vacuum. And what's all this stuff about the working class not having disappeared? Who has even suggested such a thing?

No matter who is or isnt involved in the current anti-cuts campaigning, it makes no difference to what I've said about the lack of a political alternative. The fact that no political alternatives are being seriously proposed, let alone being listened to, at the very time of what could turn out to be be capitalism's terminal crisis (or at least capitalism as we have known it) speaks volumes about our predicament.

 

[Streathamite]

It's always impossible to say, though, isn't it? It's an excellent way of avoiding any awkward questions.

wot,the self-evident truth? Sure is.
Hence my second point

 

[Streathamite]

These cuts have nothing to do with the ability to have feelings, they are to do with the survival of this country & it's services of any kind. Blame the incompetent government that took us from the 4th largest ecconomy in the world to a near trillion in debt & public spending 25% more than the country earns. If this government doesn't cut this deficit you could end up being a whole lot worse off regardless who was in power. Labour pontificating from the sidelines on how to undo the mess they have left this country in without it effecting people is so unrealistic as to make me doubt the intelligence of those who swallow it hook line & sinker. If you listen to what they say instead of hearing only what you want to hear Labour are saying they would make exactly the same cuts in public spending, but over 7 years instead of 5. Big deal! do you really think 2 years is going to make one dot of difference other than increasing the massive interest on our deficit for longer. You make me sick, you are like spoiled children, common sense tells you that if you are grossly in debt & spending 25% more than you earn you would have to drastically cut your spending. But so long as it only effects someone else & not you is all I hear. There is not one form of cut that the government has announced that has not been apposed by the left. What do you think is going to get us out of the mess we are in, wishful thinking. No government wants to make cuts, raise taxes, or do anything that effects people. But sometimes they have absolutely no choice in the matter. You can be complacent about our national debt & deficit, because we have not quite gone over the edge like Ireland or Greece, but make no mistake we teetered & are far from out of the woods yet. Failure to reverse our fiscal dilemma could result in hardship such as you could never imagine in this country. So grow up.

yippee,dwyer AND flicy trolling the same thread

 

[LLETSA]

So you are no different from Dwyer in reality? - it is in fact "all hopeless"? - at least he's upfront about it

Not even the tinsey winseyest confidence in the ability of ordinary people to be capable of being extraordinary on occasion? To work thing out for themselves on their own terms? Or has it always been manourerings among the top (like you pointed out in russia - I can only assume you see this as occuring in some sort of vacuam - with the rest of russian society as passive onlookers). Thing is I agree with lots of sensible points you make (and assume we agree on the underlying economic and social reasons for this...) for example about the changed nature of the labour party - of social democracy worldwide and about the realities of working class defeats. I just do not think that means that 'history' ends

I have as much confidence in the ability of ordinary people being able to rise to extraordinary things as anybody. You see examples of it more or less every day in one way or another. But again, this is irrelevant when you consider that we are usually subject to historical forces we cannot control. At some points in history these forces are almost wholly negative. This seems to be one such period. It would be hard to argue, for example, that mass participation and democratic control (desirable and productive as it might be in many respects) can do anything at all about unstoppable climate change or the massive pressures being put on the very natural resources that keep us all alive.

It isn't history ending (again, who has suggested any such thing?); it's precisely the opposite.

 

[LLETSA]

wot,the self-evident truth? Sure is.
Hence my second point

Most of your posts seem to consist of vacuous statements like 'Who can say?' or 'You've got to keep hoping.'

Have you ever thought about working for Barack Obama?

 

[Gromit]

As someone else stated isn't it funny how unemployed scroungers, the sick, the poor, the disaffected are seen as the problem with this country and a drain on the taxpayer.

Whereas the rich tax dodgers going out buying £1mil sport cars and multi million pound paintings are the saviours of us all.

I'm still waiting for my life to have been improved by a captain of industry making another 6 million pound bonus.