No place for Israel in Middle East, says Iran’s Ahmadinejad

[frogwoman]

I don't think that a top down reduction in people's living standards is necessary and i don't think any movement that calls itself progressive should be calling on the UN, the EU and other impieralist bodies to enact such a policy.

if you ask me there could well be sanctions on Israel within 20 years and they will have exactly the same effects that they had in iraq, in every other place where sanctions have been applied. including on the palestinian people.

 

[dylans]

Just because it may not be of great significance, it does not mean what little there is should be ignored, or not appropriately supported.

I entirely agree but it is wrong to expect Palestinians to put their legitimate fight for democratic rights on hold in the hope that such a movement emerges. Israelis have to break from their support for the occupation. It is not for Palestinians to do that for them

 

[purenarcotic]

I entirely agree but it is wrong to expect Palestinians to put their legitimate fight for democratic rights on hold in the hope that such a movement emerges. Israelis have to break from their support for the occupation. It is not for Palestinians to do that for them

Not sure I was suggesting the Palestinians wait around for it to happen. I was pointing out that we have a responsibility to support those in Israel who also believe in freedom for the Palestinians as well as the Palestinians themselves.

 

[dylans]

Not sure I was suggesting the Palestinians wait around for it to happen. I was pointing out that we have a responsibility to support those in Israel who also believe in freedom for the Palestinians as well as the Palestinians themselves.

Then we agree. In fact there is a very real need to support Israeli human rights groups such as BT'selam who are facing very real government intimidation

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think that a top down reduction in people's living standards is necessary .

If there is to be any hope of a resolution in Israel/Palestine, imo, it has to be Israelis and Palestinians coming to share the same land. For that to happen, Israelis will have to give up claims to land. Good, fertile land. Israelis will have to pay large sums to fund development in Palestinian areas. A reduction in living standards for some would not be the aim in any of this, but it might be the effect for many Israelis in the short term. It might be necessary.

 

[frogwoman]

It won't surprise me if the UN vote to put sanctions on Israel at some point within the next 20 years. I have had reservations about BDS for a long time and the more I think about it the less I like the idea. Something like a quarter of israelis live in poverty, the picture often portrayed of israel sucking on the tit of the US at its expense is an iccurate one because israel has had massive austerity programmes in the last few years. when people say "israelis aren't in the same position" or whatever you have to know what you're talking about. in the case of israeli arabs a lot of them are and a lot of the people of african descent etc live in conditions that are hardly much better.

there is plenty of joint action in terms of trade unions between israelis/palestinians btw. i don't think sanctions impiosed by imperialist powers in the interest of the bosses for the bosses would do this any good.

 

[frogwoman]

If there is to be any hope of a resolution in Israel/Palestine, imo, it has to be Israelis and Palestinians coming to share the same land. For that to happen, Israelis will have to give up claims to land. Good, fertile land. Israelis will have to pay large sums to fund development in Palestinian areas. A reduction in living standards for some would not be the aim in any of this, but it might be the effect for many Israelis in the short term. It might be necessary.

Perhaps but I don't think sanctions imposed by and for the interest of the rlulin/g class of states who have done worse stuff than Israel and helped to bring the place into existence is the way to go. I also don't think that it will help stop militant semi fascist zionism.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

states who have done worse stuff than Israel and helped to bring the place into existence .

That applies very well to the UK wrt apartheid South Africa, too.

You're right to point out the hypocrisy. But is that of itself enough to oppose sanctions?

 

[frogwoman]

That applies very well to the UK wrt apartheid South Africa, too.

I've got mixed feelings on that as well (and it's a topic I know a bit about given my family history). This probably isn't the thread for it though.

 

[purenarcotic]

One of the major problems internally at the moment is the fast growing ultra orthodox Hassidic sect. The men dedicate their lives to studying Torah, and are not released to work until their mid 30's. The women pop out a bazillion kids and are expected to look after them, look after the home and somehow support the family. Those who belong to the groups who are anti-zionist (and most Hasidim hold an anti-zionist standpoint) refuse any state benefits so the poverty they live in is extreme and they survive largely on charities funded by the Hassidic groups in America. Because they are popping out so many kids, they are becoming the fastest growing group, and are expected to overtake the main population of Israel relatively quickly.

So while you could argue having a majority group who are anti-zionist is a good thing, their attitude to just about anything and everything is frightening. Different pavements for men and women, anyone?

 

[dylans]

It won't surprise me if the UN vote to put sanctions on Israel at some point within the next 20 years. I have had reservations about BDS for a long time and the more I think about it the less I like the idea. Something like a quarter of israelis live in poverty, the picture often portrayed of israel sucking on the tit of the US at its expense is an iccurate one because israel has had massive austerity programmes in the last few years. when people say "israelis aren't in the same position" or whatever you have to know what you're talking about. in the case of israeli arabs a lot of them are and a lot of the people of african descent etc live in conditions that are hardly much better.

there is plenty of joint action in terms of trade unions between israelis/palestinians btw. i don't think sanctions impiosed by imperialist powers in the interest of the bosses for the bosses would do this any good.

Israelis aren't denied basic democratic rights. They don't see their children hauled off to prison in the middle of the night. They aren't gunned down at random while their killers get a slap on the wrist. They don't have their houses demolished or have to scrape by on unfertile land with little water while settlers build swimming pools on their land. They don't have to negotiate checkpoints manned by soldiers. They don't see their land slowly and relentlessly stolen and settled. They don't live under watchtowers or suffer aerial bombardment by one of the most powerful military machines in the world. You simply can't compare the situation of the average Israeli to that of people living under military occupation

 

[frogwoman]

Israelis aren't denied basic democratic rights. They don't see their children hauled off to prison in the middle of the night. They aren't gunned down at random while their killers get a slap on the wrist. They don't have their houses demolished or have to scrape by on unfertile land with little water while settlers build swimming pools on their land. They don't have to negotiate checkpoints manned by soldiers. They don't see their land slowly and relentlessly stolen and settled. They don't live under watchtowers or suffer aerial bombardment by one of the most powerful military machines in the world.

agreed.

i know all about zionism and what its effects have been.

that does not mean that petitioning the ruling class of those who have been supplying israel with weapons etc and those who sit in high office to enact sanctions which will harm ordinary israelis and palestinians disproportionately is in my opinion a good idea. i have my doubts that it is.

 

[dylans]

agreed.

i know all about zionism and what its effects have been.

that does not mean that petitioning the ruling class of those who have been supplying israel with weapons etc and those who sit in high office to enact sanctions which will harm ordinary israelis and palestinians disproportionately is in my opinion a good idea. i have my doubts that it is.

BDS is not about petitioning the ruling class to enact sanctions. Its about responding to a call by those living under occupation for international grass roots solidarity

 

[littlebabyjesus]

that does not mean that petitioning the ruling class of those who have been supplying israel with weapons etc and those who sit in high office to enact sanctions which will harm ordinary israelis and palestinians disproportionately is in my opinion a good idea. i have my doubts that it is.

Yes. You could make the case for saying that other countries should be organising boycotts of the UK. Except they're poor and in no position to even think of such a thing. I don't like appeals to power like that either. Doing so is to recognise its legitimacy to some extent.

 

[frogwoman]

Then we agree. In fact there is a very real need to support Israeli human rights groups such as BT'selam who are facing very real government intimidation

And you think that sanctions will stop government intimidation?

did saddam stop intimidating people?

 

[dylans]

And you think that sanctions will stop government intimidation?

did saddam stop intimidating people?

The comparison with Iraq is not a good one. First the call for BDS is a grassroots call from Palestinian civil society groups. The call for sanctions was never a call from Iraqis, rather it was implemented by those who wished to invade and occupy Iraq.
Second the sanctions regime against Iraq was about starving its people in order to strangle its regime. The call for BDS is a call for isolating Israel in order to force it to obey international law and end the occupation. Sanctions against Iraq were state driven sanctions aimed at its people. The call for BDS is a call for grassroots solidarity, for artists, writers and academics to boycott Israel in order to deny it its claim to legitimacy while it continues its illegal occupation. Finally the call for BDS is a tactical call as part of a wider struggle for liberation and most importantly, it is a campaign launched and organised by those who are fighting for democratic rights

A better example is South Africa where the call for sanctions, like Palestine, came from grass roots organisations. Likewise it was a demand aimed at isolating South Africa in order to force it to end its denial of democratic rights to its black majority, Likewise it was a call for grassroots solidarity aimed at denying South Africa legitimacy. Like South Africa, BDS is part of a wider liberation movement Most importantly in South Africa it worked. Not alone, but as part of the wider liberation movement it played an important role. Something admitted by the Pretoria regime.

 

[frogwoman]

The comparison with Iraq is not a good one. First the call for BDS is a grassroots call from Palestinian civil society groups. The call for sanctions was never a call from Iraqis, rather it was implemented by those who wished to invade and occupy Iraq.
Second the sanctions regime against Iraq was about starving its people in order to strangle its regime. The call for BDS is a call for isolating Israel in order to force it to obey international law and end the occupation. Sanctions against Iraq were state driven sanctions aimed at its people. The call for BDS is a call for grassroots solidarity, for artists, writers and academics to boycott Israel in order to deny it its claim to legitimacy while it continues its illegal occupation. Finally the call for BDS is a tactical call as part of a wider struggle for liberation and most importantly, it is a campaign launched and organised by those who are fighting for democratic rights

A better example is South Africa where the call for sanctions, like Palestine, came from grass roots organisations. Likewise it was a demand aimed at isolating South Africa in order to force it to end its denial of democratic rights to its black majority, Likewise it was a call for grassroots solidarity aimed at denying South Africa legitimacy. Like South Africa, BDS is part of a wider liberation movement Most importantly in South Africa it worked. Not alone, but as part of the wider liberation movement it played an important role. Something admitted by the Pretoria regime.

The obvious reply to that is that this proposed sanctions programme isnt a call from Israelis either.

I'm not against boycotting israel. I myself don't buy israeli goods. But calling for sanctions ffs? fuck off.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

the left doesn't exist in Israel.

Bonkers bruno

 

[frogwoman]

I've changed my position on this quite a lot since the last time this topic came up. It's perfectly possible to despise the manner israel was created and despise zionism and not want to punish the israeli w/c for something they have little control over.

 

[ViolentPanda]

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/a...israel-in-middle-east-says-iran-s-ahmadinejad


If there is no place for Israel in the middle east, I wonder where he suggests they go!?

Interesting that you interpret Ahmedinedjad saying "there is no room for Zionism" as "there is no place for Israel".

Twat.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The political death of israel doesn't mean that israeli's have to go anywhere. And as is always pointed out, this is just rhetoric designed to shore up domestic support for his faction of the theocracy and support for Iran regionally.

And, as always, carefully-worded so that each can take from it what they wish to read into it.

 

[frogwoman]

that said, i don't think we should be quick to defend iran's government and president on the basis of a shared opposition to zionism ...

 

[cesare]

Interesting that you interpret Ahmedinedjad saying "there is no room for Zionism" as "there is no place for Israel".

Twat.

Confused Canadian newspaper, conflating Irael with Zionism in their headline and content.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Confused Canadian newspaper, conflating Irael with Zionism in their headline and content.

True, but weltweit has pulled this bit of disingenuousness before in relation to Israel, so I'm not convinced it was him being fooled by the Toronto Star's shoddy reporting.

 

[cesare]

True, but weltweit has pulled this bit of disingenuousness before in relation to Israel, so I'm not convinced it was him being fooled by the Toronto Star's shoddy reporting.

Ah, maybe I should be more suspicious of motives.

 

[IC3D]

I've changed my position on this quite a lot since the last time this topic came up. It's perfectly possible to despise the manner israel was created and despise zionism and not want to punish the israeli w/c for something they have little control over.

My experience of Israel was a lot of racism between Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews, the later appeared to make up most of the working class and have not much money if not living in actual poverty

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Iranian revolution went against the US idea of the world. That can never be forgiven, just as the Cuban revolution can never be forgiven. The Iranians know this. It does not matter how vile the opponents of Iran are, the US will support them.

Not true. Right up until the last minute the US were sowing assets into the revolution, to give them leverage on policy at a later date. As usual, they attempted to stack the deck in favour of US interests, but this time it didn't work, purely because the grassroots sentiment against accommodationism was too strong.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ah, maybe I should be more suspicious of motives.

Nah, I'm just over-sensitive on the subject, so I tend to recall when people have posted similar stories. AT least this one wasn't sourced from MEMRI, as far as I can see.

 

[ViolentPanda]

oh piss off with your ideas. The USA has supported religious and nationalist revolutions when it's suited them

Yep. As long as the USA gets to continue getting its' own way, not much of a fuck is given about the politics of a state. What really bit the American political classes was losing their hold on Iranian oil.

 

[purenarcotic]

My experience of Israel was a lot of racism between Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews, the later appeared to make up most of the working class and have not much money if not living in actual poverty

Yup. See my earlier post about the Hasidim in Israel. The Ashkenazis are mainly European and usually the wealthy, the sephardi / mizrahi communities, who have traditionaly always lived in the middle east / spain / africa and usually much less wealthy (the Hasidim are an exception as traditionally they are Ashkenazi).

There is a huge amount of infighting within the various communities.

In fact, the main Sephardi political party only joined the world zionist organisation last year; previously they had held an anti-zionist stance.