No place for Israel in Middle East, says Iran’s Ahmadinejad

[Random]

Sorry knotted, I misunderstood you I think. I said similar things earlier, about Israeli society in fact needing protest for its own good.

 

[Knotted]

No worries - I wasn't clear.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am not Jewish. I believe that the Palestinians are suffering and have suffered wrongs and injustices at the hands of the Israelis. That requires remedy; recompense.I have no doubt that there are stubborn narrow minded religious zealots in Israel who wouldn't be my choice to have a chat with.

It's not the religious nutters who're a problem. Half of the ultras are pacifists whose best offensive weapon is throwing stones.
The problem is the secular nationalist-Zionists who, like the USA, believe there is some sort of "manifest destiny" at play in their presence in the Middle East: That they have "returned" to Israel to rebuild the pre-Roman Jewish hegemony in the region.

But I think we need to put this in a broader perspective. Hitler tried to eliminate the Jewish race. He killed 6 million Jews. The state of Israel was a reaction to that fact. It has now turned into a ghastly concentration camp in its own right. One or two nuclear explosions will "wipe Israel off the map" as threatened by the Iranians in a second holocaust. That is why I believe Israel will attack Iran before Iran is completely nuclear capable, unless Iran decides not to acquire those weapons. The Israelis will not rely on the rest of the world to protect them from a second holocaust. I find the whole situation terrifying.

So Iran (population 75 million) should deny itself access to nuclear power simply to reassure Israel (population 8 million) that it isn't under threat, that no "second Holocaust" is intended?
Wouldn't you say that the above kind of cosseting of the state of Israel is one of the causes of every impasse since 1967?

 

[frogwoman]

yep. zionism in its current form isn't really a religious movement.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And to mad4ziz I'll just say that Israel being set up in response to the Shoa is simply untrue. But I'll leave VP to properly destroy that claim.

Dang, I was hoping someone else would! We can say, without fear or favour, that the state of Israel appeared rather too quickly to have been merely a response to Shoah.

To put it succinctly, the mandate of Palestine was a device to facilitate an eventual Jewish majority in Palestine. Jewish settlement in Palestine was well-advanced by the 1930s. European Jews weren't even wanted by many Palestinian Jews, and the post-war actions of the mostly European-derived guerrillas, and then of the mostly European-derived governments of the state of Israel showed why: There was no interest in coexistence. The idea of a "Jewish national home" in part of Palestine was deliberately set aside in favour of an idea that combined "existential security" with lebensraum - a nationalist-Zionist vision of eretz Isroel (Greater Israel), which sees an eventual expansion into Syria, northern Egypt and Jordan as a right.

 

[frogwoman]

Saying that it was a response to the holocaust ignores the fact that preparations for it were being made in the 20s.

 

[TomUS]

Saying that it was a response to the holocaust ignores the fact that preparations for it were being made in the 20s.

You could say that "preparations" were being made in the 1800s. But it's clear that the country of Israel wouldn't exist as it does today if it weren't for the Nazis/holocaust.

 

[Mad4ziz]

It's not the religious nutters who're a problem. Half of the ultras are pacifists whose best offensive weapon is throwing stones.
The problem is the secular nationalist-Zionists who, like the USA, believe there is some sort of "manifest destiny" at play in their presence in the Middle East: That they have "returned" to Israel to rebuild the pre-Roman Jewish hegemony in the region.



So Iran (population 75 million) should deny itself access to nuclear power simply to reassure Israel (population 8 million) that it isn't under threat, that no "second Holocaust" is intended?
Wouldn't you say that the above kind of cosseting of the state of Israel is one of the causes of every impasse since 1967?

Of course Iran shouldnt be denied nuclear power...but there are a couple of problems- the inconvenient fact that its President has said he wants Israel wiped off the map, and that he is a holocaust denier. I am not saying Israel is always right I am focussed on what the Iranian President has said.

As to Zionism, I know it started in the 19th C but I stand by what I said: no holocaust in WW2, no Israel in 1947. This is the point: European guilt pushed it through..but the tragedies are many...the plight of the Palestinians but also the absurd strategic knife edge the State of Israel is balanced on. And in context of Jewish history,my prediction is that Israel will attack Iran like it did the reactor in Syria in 2007. If Iran or Pakistan retaliates, we are in uncharted territory because the Israelis allegedly have a nuclear counterstrike capability via German built Dolphin class subs. WW3 not far away. Against that background, how irresponsible is it for the President of Iran to state he wants to wipe Israel off the map, and then begain a covert game of cat and mouse re nuclear "power"?

 

[TomUS]

The supreme leader is backing Ahmad.... in his hate filled anti Semitic statements.

The "cancerous tumour" of Israel is the biggest problem confronting Muslim countries today, Iran's supreme leader said on Sunday....
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said "the big powers have dominated the destiny of the Islamic countries for years and... installed the Zionist cancerous tumour in the heart of the Islamic world," according to the official IRNA news agency.

The "tumour" characterisation was a repeat of terms Khamenei and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have long used to portray Israel as an illegitimate state in the Middle East that will inevitably disappear.
In the most recent incidents, last Wednesday Khamenei called Israel a "bogus and fake Zionist outgrowth" and Ahmadinejad on Friday said: "The Zionist regime and the Zionists are a cancerous tumour."

http://news.yahoo.com/iran-leader-says-tumour-israel-biggest-problem-100533170.html

This "tumor" Israel is the biggest problem confronting Muslim countries today.....really? I'd say it's the biggest problem confronting Palestinians, but not Muslim countries. Is Israel the biggest problem for Tunisia, Morocco, Libya, Egypt, Indonesia? By making these crazy statements, they do a favor for the Israeli right and invite an Israeli attack.

On Saturday, General Amir Ali Hajizadeh, the head of the aerospatial division of the Revolutionary Guards that is in charge of Iran's missiles, said: "Iran's response to any aggression will be rapid, firm, destructive and broad."
He said he welcomed Israel making such a move, as "that would be a good occasion and good pretext to put an end to the shameful existence of the sham, occupying and usurping regime and save humanity from this cancerous tumor."

Be careful what you wish for general. You may get it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Of course Iran shouldnt be denied nuclear power...but there are a couple of problems- the inconvenient fact that its President has said he wants Israel wiped off the map..

Tell you what, you find me a translation of the original speeches Ahmedinedjad made that says "I want Israel wiped off the map", and I'll donate a score to your favourite charity, on one condition:
That condition is that the translation must not have been originally sourced from MEMRI.org, but from a neutral translator or interpreter, because every neutral translation or interpretation I've read or heard has said something different - it has said Zionism must be wiped off the map. Not Zionists, not Jews, not Israel or Israelis, but Zionism.

And you know what, he's got a point.

and that he is a holocaust denier. I am not saying Israel is always right I am focussed on what the Iranian President has said.

The last big furore in the western papers about holocaust denial by Ahmedinedjad wasn't even holocaust denial. It was the man saying (to paraphrase) "why does the Islamic world have to suffer because of the crimes of the west? Why do Palestinians have to suffer because of what Germans did?"

As to Zionism, I know it started in the 19th C but I stand by what I said: no holocaust in WW2, no Israel in 1947.

Maybe not in '47 or '48, agreed, but by the mid-fifties there would have been some form of non-UDI state of Israel, sanctioned by the UN.

This is the point: European guilt pushed it through..

No, it really didn't. Even the guilt felt by the Allies barely-facilitated it. What facilitated it was mass illegal immigration to and settlement in Palestine by the younger European Jews, plus terrorist actions against Mandate forces and Palestinian Muslims.

None of this is "hidden history", it's all out there to be read, if you go beyond the basic sources.

but the tragedies are many...the plight of the Palestinians but also the absurd strategic knife edge the State of Israel is balanced on.

The absurd situation the majority of people in Israel have been put in by their political leaders, you mean? The acceptance of US backing in return for being a beachhead into the Middle East?

And in context of Jewish history

What Jewish history? The three and a half thousand years of history that precedes the Zionist entity, or the 65 years that includes it?

my prediction is that Israel will attack Iran like it did the reactor in Syria in 2007. If Iran or Pakistan retaliates, we are in uncharted territory because the Israelis allegedly have a nuclear counterstrike capability via German built Dolphin class subs.

The state of Israel has had land, air and water-based nuclear capability for 4 decades. The only reason people claim it is "alleged" is because as a non-signatory to the various Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaties, Israel has never actually admmitted to having nuclear weapons, let alone quantified them.

Again, this is not "hidden history".

WW3 not far away. Against that background, how irresponsible is it for the President of Iran to state he wants to wipe Israel off the map, and then begain a covert game of cat and mouse re nuclear "power"?

If he'd actually said that, you might have a point. Interesting that you take propaganda at face value, rather than examining it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The supreme leader is backing Ahmad.... in his hate filled anti Semitic statements.


http://news.yahoo.com/iran-leader-says-tumour-israel-biggest-problem-100533170.html

This "tumor" Israel is the biggest problem confronting Muslim countries today.....really? I'd say it's the biggest problem confronting Palestinians, but not Muslim countries. Is Israel the biggest problem for Tunisia, Morocco, Libya, Egypt, Indonesia? By making these crazy statements, they do a favor for the Israeli right and invite an Israeli attack.


Be careful what you wish for general. You may get it.

That's right, little Middle Eastern and North African Muslims, just roll over and let yourselves be walked over by the local bully.

As ever on this subject, you talk a load of shit, Tom.

 

[TomUS]

That's right, little Middle Eastern and North African Muslims, just roll over and let yourselves be walked over by the local bully.

As ever on this subject, you talk a load of shit, Tom.

How exactly are they being bullied?

 

[Mad4ziz]

Tell you what, you find me a translation of the original speeches Ahmedinedjad made that says "I want Israel wiped off the map", and I'll donate a score to your favourite charity, on one condition:
That condition is that the translation must not have been originally sourced from MEMRI.org, but from a neutral translator or interpreter, because every neutral translation or interpretation I've read or heard has said something different - it has said Zionism must be wiped off the map. Not Zionists, not Jews, not Israel or Israelis, but Zionism.

And you know what, he's got a point.



The last big furore in the western papers about holocaust denial by Ahmedinedjad wasn't even holocaust denial. It was the man saying (to paraphrase) "why does the Islamic world have to suffer because of the crimes of the west? Why do Palestinians have to suffer because of what Germans did?"



Maybe not in '47 or '48, agreed, but by the mid-fifties there would have been some form of non-UDI state of Israel, sanctioned by the UN.



No, it really didn't. Even the guilt felt by the Allies barely-facilitated it. What facilitated it was mass illegal immigration to and settlement in Palestine by the younger European Jews, plus terrorist actions against Mandate forces and Palestinian Muslims.

None of this is "hidden history", it's all out there to be read, if you go beyond the basic sources.



The absurd situation the majority of people in Israel have been put in by their political leaders, you mean? The acceptance of US backing in return for being a beachhead into the Middle East?



What Jewish history? The three and a half thousand years of history that precedes the Zionist entity, or the 65 years that includes it?



The state of Israel has had land, air and water-based nuclear capability for 4 decades. The only reason people claim it is "alleged" is because as a non-signatory to the various Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaties, Israel has never actually admmitted to having nuclear weapons, let alone quantified them.

Again, this is not "hidden history".



If he'd actually said that, you might have a point. Interesting that you take propaganda at face value, rather than examining it.

1. Did he say Israel or Zionism? I dont know. Either way, 1 or 2 nukes will wipe the State of Israel out, together with the people Jews and Arabs who live there.
2. Is Zionism bad? As far as I can see it isnt great-its not a liberal attitude. And yes the sense of self righteousness it engenders is sickening. It might be good if the selfrighteousness was to wither on the vine.
3. fair enough-the Islamic world didnt perpetrate the holocaust. But there are many reasons for the problems in the Islamic world besides Zionism or western guilt.
4.I dont think Israel can rely on the US in an existential crisis.The US won't want a full scale nuclear war, which paradoxically makes it more likely in my view as Israel will go it alone.
5. I was referring to the little bit of Jewish history that consisted in 6 million of them being murdered. I think it might be playing on the minds of the Israelis now and influencing their policies-just possibly?
6. My reference to "alleged" wasnt to signal that I support Israeli double standards on nuclear disclosure it was to signal that perhaps they dont really have counterstrike capability on their subs but are pretending to in order to deter Iran? If that is the case, its a good deception...isnt it?
7.What is known is that there are about 20000-25000 nuclear warheads on planet earth and that the "success" of MAD in the cold war wasnt just down to RAND corporation and game theory savants-there were many many near misses when we nearly had WW3. I want a world of zero nukes,but I fear Israeli beliefs that they will need to go it alone to prevent Iran. If there is a nuclear exchange in the middle east it could spread globally-both the US and Russia have land based ICBMs at launch on warning status-broadly no more than 15 minutes to decide...
Against that backdrop, isnt there some weight to my point, even if he said Zionism should be wiped off the map? Or do you think the west will escape a nuclear war? We must take Islamic concerns on board, yes; but we must take the Israeli mindset into account as well, however unpleasant it may feel. otherwise we risk increasing Israel's belief that it must go it alone.

 

[weltweit]

True, but weltweit has pulled this bit of disingenuousness before in relation to Israel, so I'm not convinced it was him being fooled by the Toronto Star's shoddy reporting.

Bollocks have I - quote me the post!

 

[Bernie Gunther]

If a nuclear free Middle East is the aim, then the first step is to get rid of the existing nuclear weapons.

 

[weltweit]

If a nuclear free Middle East is the aim, then the first step is to get rid of the existing nuclear weapons.

I can't see Israel giving theirs up, those that they deny exist anyhow.
How would you plan to achieve this Bernie?

 

[weltweit]

Ahmadinejad: We will destroy Israel soon
Israel Today Magazine
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23348/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: Israel's existence 'insult to all humanity'
The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Israels-existence-insult-to-all-humanity.html

Iran's Ahmadinejad says no place for Israel in new Middle East
Reuters
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/08/17/uk-iran-israel-idUKBRE87G0AF20120817

Ahmadinejad: Israel is 'an insult to humanity'
And in the details: "The existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to all humanity".
The Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-israel-is-an-insult-to-humanity-8057344.html

Just interesting to compare the headlines different outlets have used for their articles.
The first one is obviously the most stark and not a line others have taken.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ahmadinejad: We will destroy Israel soon
Israel Today Magazine
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23348/language/en-US/Default.aspx

That's the headline. In none of the text attributed to Ahmedinedjad does he actually say the words in the headline.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: Israel's existence 'insult to all humanity'
The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Israels-existence-insult-to-all-humanity.html

Ahmadinedjad's actual words: "The existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to all humanity".

Iran's Ahmadinejad says no place for Israel in new Middle East
Reuters
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/08/17/uk-iran-israel-idUKBRE87G0AF20120817

Ahmadinedjad's actual words: "You want a new Middle East? We do too, but in the new Middle East ... there will be no trace of the American presence and the Zionists".

Ahmadinejad: Israel is 'an insult to humanity'
And in the details: "The existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to all humanity".
The Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-israel-is-an-insult-to-humanity-8057344.html

Just interesting to compare the headlines different outlets have used for their articles.
The first one is obviously the most stark and not a line others have taken.

Ahmadinedjad's actual words in the Indie: " "The existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to all humanity".

So, basically you';ve googled headlines, not read the articles, and now you look like an idiot.

 

[IC3D]

When Iran talks about Zionists they mean The State of Israel, they don't recognise it as a legitimate entity.

 

[weltweit]

Ahmadinedjad's actual words: "The existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to all humanity".

How can you be so certain? have you the speech and a verified translation?

 

[ViolentPanda]

1. Did he say Israel or Zionism? I dont know. Either way, 1 or 2 nukes will wipe the State of Israel out, together with the people Jews and Arabs who live there.

So it doesn't matter if the media consistently misrepresent the political leader of a medium-large nation-state, because there's nukes out there?

2. Is Zionism bad? As far as I can see it isnt great-its not a liberal attitude. And yes the sense of self righteousness it engenders is sickening. It might be good if the selfrighteousness was to wither on the vine.

In the context of this thread, yes, it's bad. It's been the fuel for destabilisation of an entire region, destabilisation that ultimately serves a particular end - access to resources.

3. fair enough-the Islamic world didnt perpetrate the holocaust. But there are many reasons for the problems in the Islamic world besides Zionism or western guilt.

No-one has claimed that there aren't.

4.I dont think Israel can rely on the US in an existential crisis.The US won't want a full scale nuclear war, which paradoxically makes it more likely in my view as Israel will go it alone.

Full-scale nuclear war is unlikely to be an issue, and even a limited nuclear war is unlikely. Have a look at some weather maps, check the predominant local weather systems: Either side letting fly means both sides take fallout.

5. I was referring to the little bit of Jewish history that consisted in 6 million of them being murdered. I think it might be playing on the minds of the Israelis now and influencing their policies-just possibly?

The Holocaust, for many Israeli politicians, isn't a reason for policy, it's an excuse to engage in quasi-fascism.

6. My reference to "alleged" wasnt to signal that I support Israeli double standards on nuclear disclosure it was to signal that perhaps they dont really have counterstrike capability on their subs but are pretending to in order to deter Iran? If that is the case, its a good deception...isnt it?

Their subs take a class of missile they have access to. The IDF has access to excellent (in some cases better than what the US can access) hardware and software development and engineering. The likelihood is that they do have such capability, just as they developed their aircraft-based and land-based missile systems.

7.What is known is that there are about 20000-25000 nuclear warheads on planet earth and that the "success" of MAD in the cold war wasnt just down to RAND corporation and game theory savants-there were many many near misses when we nearly had WW3. I want a world of zero nukes,but I fear Israeli beliefs that they will need to go it alone to prevent Iran. If there is a nuclear exchange in the middle east it could spread globally-both the US and Russia have land based ICBMs at launch on warning status-broadly no more than 15 minutes to decide...
Against that backdrop, isnt there some weight to my point, even if he said Zionism should be wiped off the map? Or do you think the west will escape a nuclear war? We must take Islamic concerns on board, yes; but we must take the Israeli mindset into account as well, however unpleasant it may feel. otherwise we risk increasing Israel's belief that it must go it alone.

I think you're doing two things - you're mistaking a common type of oratory peculiar to the Middle East and Iran for actual policy, and a justificatory rhetoric from the US and Israel assuming a future Iran nuclear capability for being an actual reason to attack Iran.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How can you be so certain? have you the speech and a verified translation?

I've listened to it, and while the audio does contain the word "Zionist" it doesn't contain the word "Israel". Now, if I can pick that out of an audio broadcast, and I'm half deaf, what's wrong with the ears of those journalists who wrote the articles you linked to? Could it be he said something they didn't want to hear?

 

[weltweit]

I've listened to it, and while the audio does contain the word "Zionist" it doesn't contain the word "Israel". Now, if I can pick that out of an audio broadcast, and I'm half deaf, what's wrong with the ears of those journalists who wrote the articles you linked to? Could it be he said something they didn't want to hear?

The only point of me listing those articles was to illustrate how different the way he was being reported was. I think it did that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

When Iran talks about Zionists they mean The State of Israel, they don't recognise it as a legitimate entity.

The state of Israel as a manifestation of Zionism. The only Arabs or Persians I've ever heard talking about destroying the peope rather than the state have been ultra-religious types

 

[ViolentPanda]

The only point of me listing those articles was to illustrate how different the way he was being reported was. I think it did that.

Insofar as they all used slightly different words to reach the same editorial point.

 

[weltweit]

Insofar as they all used slightly different words to reach the same editorial point.

I think:

Ahmadinejad: We will destroy Israel soon
Israel Today Magazine

.... Is more than just slightly different words, and intended on inflaming opinion in Israel, (perhaps toward imminent military action), while Ahmadinejad is inflaming opinions in Iran against their sworn enemy.

 

[TomUS]

Ahmadinejad: We will destroy Israel soon
Israel Today Magazine
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23348/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: Israel's existence 'insult to all humanity'
The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Israels-existence-insult-to-all-humanity.html

Iran's Ahmadinejad says no place for Israel in new Middle East
Reuters
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/08/17/uk-iran-israel-idUKBRE87G0AF20120817

Ahmadinejad: Israel is 'an insult to humanity'
And in the details: "The existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to all humanity".
The Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-israel-is-an-insult-to-humanity-8057344.html

Just interesting to compare the headlines different outlets have used for their articles.
The first one is obviously the most stark and not a line others have taken.

The first is the most extreme, but the overall message is pretty clear, especially combined with the recent statements of the supreme leader. They express an all out frothing at the mouth hatred of Israel by a repressive theocracy designed to divert the Iranian people's attention from their tyrannical government (& it's support for their butcher ally, Assad). Quote # 3 is especially amusing. The Iranian government portrays itself as part of the struggles for freedom in the new Middle East??????

 

[weltweit]

I think it would be good to have some kind of approved translation of the speech. (not just that one)

 

[weltweit]

The first is the most extreme, but the overall message is pretty clear, especially combined with the recent statements of the supreme leader. They express an all out frothing at the mouth hatred of Israel by a repressive theocracy designed to divert the Iranian people's attention from their tyrannical government (& it's support for their butcher ally, Assad). Quote # 3 is especially amusing. The Iranian government portrays itself as part of the struggles for freedom in the new Middle East??????

Can I assume from this TomUS that you are a supporter of the state of Israel?

 

[TomUS]

Can I assume from this TomUS that you are a supporter of the state of Israel?

I'm for Israel's right to exist within the pre 1967 war boundaries. I'm against their occupation of the WB, the WB settlements & their turning Gaza into a prison camp.