New age cosmic hippies and the far right

[LLETSA]

your yin and yang are out of kilter I fear

I'm considering starting drinking my own piss.

 

[TruXta]

You don't think the fantasy of going "off grid" is particularly individualistic?

Not really, inasmuch as it was quite often tied into communalist ideas and projects.

 

[Idaho]

Individualism, a critique of.

5000 words, on my desk by tomorrow morning.

I love it when you take a firm hand. Gives me the raging horn.

 

[LLETSA]

Yes, indeed. Thanks idaho for stressing the possible right-wing nature of much hippy culture and the distance of that culture from leftism.

In fact much of what went to make up fascism was rooted in the same elitist bohemianism that inspired the movements that culminated in the hippies, and which lives on in today's New Age/'alternative lifestyle' scenes.

 

[Blagsta]

Not really, inasmuch as it was quite often tied into communalist ideas and projects.

Which can only exist (as LLETSA says), by being selfish and relying on others who cannot drop out, to survive.

 

[frogwoman]

In fact much of what went to make up fascism was rooted in the same elitist bohemianism that inspired the movements that culminated in the hippies, and which liveS on in today's New Age/'alternative lifestyle' scenes.

Yep.

 

[TruXta]

Which can only exist (as LLETSA says), by being selfish and relying on others who cannot drop out, to survive.

Bollocks. By that definition of selfishness I'm selfish for not helping laying roads, digging sewers and generally partaking in all manner of basic construction of the life-world. In other words, how is a commune trying to make a living off a piece of land individualist?

 

[LLETSA]

But you could map hippy anti-establishmentism with the left.

Not necessarily. There have been plenty of anti-establishment right-wingers. Have you ever read Celine's Journey to the End of the Night, for instance? A fantastic novel, incidentally.

 

[Idaho]

In fact much of what went to make up fascism was rooted in the same elitist bohemianism that inspired the movements that culminated in the hippies, and which liveS on in today's New Age/'alternative lifestyle' scenes.

Fascism was caused by elitist 1920's hippies?! Nothing to do with middle class and elite reaction to the threat of communism? Nothing to do with conjunction of the weakness of democratic institutions, the power of the military and the development of modern nationalism and the nation state?

Now you're having a laugh.

 

[Blagsta]

Bollocks. By that definition of selfishness I'm selfish for not helping laying roads, digging sewers and generally partaking in all manner of basic construction of the life-world. In other words, how is a commune trying to make a living off a piece of land individualist?

I'm assuming you pay taxes and don't actively boast about how you avoid paying them?

 

[Blagsta]

Fascism was caused by elitist 1920's hippies?! Nothing to do with middle class and elite reaction to the threat of communism? Nothing to do with conjunction of the weakness of democratic institutions, the power of the military and the development of modern nationalism and the nation state?

Now you're having a laugh.

There were definite links between fascist ideas and the early ecological movement.

 

[TruXta]

I'm assuming you pay taxes and don't actively boast about how you avoid paying them?

So now we're assuming that hippies per definition did not or do not pay taxes? Just to clarify like. FWIW I do pay my taxes and have no intention of stopping.

 

[Blagsta]

So now we're assuming that hippies per definition did not or do not pay taxes? Just to clarify like. FWIW I do pay my taxes and have no intention of stopping.

I refer you back to the post that started this little interaction.

 

[TruXta]

There were definite links between fascist ideas and the early ecological movement.

Oh, are you gearing up to a screed against eco-fascists?

 

[Captain Hurrah]

I think one of the things LLETSA is on about is this - last year I met a crustie in a pub who was boasting about being "off grid" (as he put it), having some land and using solar power, not paying any taxes, working for himself, not being on the electoral roll etc. He was still happy to use pavements, roads, health services, benefit from an education etc, despite being unwilling to pay for it or wanting to associate with society in any other terms but his own.

Had an argument with my own brother about this crap a few months ago. He hangs about with these types (him and his girlfriend used to live in vans).

 

[butchersapron]

There were definite links between fascist ideas and the early ecological movement.

Yep - excellent book.

 

[LLETSA]

Fascism was caused by elitist 1920's hippies?! Nothing to do with middle class and elite reaction to the threat of communism? Nothing to do with conjunction of the weakness of democratic institutions, the power of the military and the development of modern nationalism and the nation state?

Now you're having a laugh.

Yes, it was connected to all of those things as well as what I said.

 

[TruXta]

I refer you back to the post that started this little interaction.

Then you have to be a little bit more precise about what going off-grid means. As you might know it came from when people lived off the infrastructural grid - no leccy, sewerage, water pipes etc. That doesn't mean people can't or won't pay their taxes/dues.

 

[Blagsta]

Oh, are you gearing up to a screed against eco-fascists?

No, just pointing out some interesting historical links. See also romanticism and fascism.

 

[Blagsta]

Then you have to be a little bit more precise about what going off-grid means. As you might know it came from when people lived off the infrastructural grid - no leccy, sewerage, water pipes etc. That doesn't mean people can't or won't pay their taxes/dues.

I refer you back to the post that started this little interaction.

 

[LLETSA]

Had an argument with my own brother about this crap a few months ago. He hangs about with these types (him and his girlfriend used to live in vans).

How somebody can think living in a fucking van represents freedom is beyond me.

 

[TruXta]

Yep - excellent book.

They look interesting, but it needs saying that US progressivism, which to a large extent ushered in US environmental movements, predates fascism.

 

[TruXta]

I refer you back to the post that started this little interaction.

Sorry, which one are you referring to?

 

[Idaho]

Yes, it was connected to all of those things as well as what I said.

So it's all a bit mixed up and unclear? Like the hippy movement.

I heard a rumour that the development of Marxist theory was due to the patronage of industrialists - therefore communism is capitalism, black is white... now where is that zebra crossing?

 

[butchersapron]

They look interesting, but it needs saying that US progressivism, which to a large extent ushered in US environmental movements, predates fascism.

Well then we can go back to reactionary romanticism of the late 18th early 19th century...

 

[Blagsta]

Sorry, which one are you referring to?

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...nd-the-far-right.284488/page-13#post-10804425

 

[Blagsta]

So it's all a bit mixed up and unclear? Like the hippy movement.

I heard a rumour that the development of Marxist theory was due to the patronage of industrialists - therefore communism is capitalism, black is white... now where is that zebra crossing?

No one is arguing anything like as clear cut an argument as you make out they are. Its much more about influences, currents and strands, than this caused that.

 

[LLETSA]

So it's all a bit mixed up and unclear? Like the hippy movement.

I heard a rumour that the development of Marxist theory was due to the patronage of industrialists - therefore communism is capitalism, black is white... now where is that zebra crossing?

Of course communism (in the modern sense) and socialism are dependent on capitalism. How could they not be?

 

[Captain Hurrah]

How somebody can think living in a fucking van represents freedom is beyond me.

It's quite funny considering he used to have an ambition to join the army. I can't take his shit seriously anyway. When he visits our mother a few times each year, when travelling between Scotland and London, he is very disrespectful: eats a lot of food without asking, like a one-man equivalent of a plague of fucking locusts, drinks all the alcohol he can find and generally acts like a selfish cunt. One time he stole all the pens in her house kept in a container near the computer desk (he's starting an OU course soon). One time she complained about her picking him up from Manchester airport and refused to pay for petrol. She's a pensioner, and he earns decent money as an outdoor instructor.

 

[TruXta]

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...nd-the-far-right.284488/page-13#post-10804425

Thanks. Thing is, you can't opt out of history. You can't not partake of technology or the works of others, unless you go full retard and retreat to a cave and live off berries and snails. The guy you met sounds like a numpty, but that doesn't mean he's representative of other people going off-grid. I've got a few acquaintances trying to do the whole green living, self-sufficiency thing and FWIW they're very happy to pay for basic services and utilities.