New Labour government - legislative agenda

[littlebabyjesus]

So, you did not predict that they would cut the Winter Fuel Allowance.

Nobody did. But plenty of people predicted that this would be the kind of thing they would do.

They left the statement that things will get worse before they get better until after the election. They needed the cover of pretending they weren't aware just how bad things were until they took office before springing that one.

Of course that begs the question: if you can't be fully aware of how bad things are until you take office, how is it that you can make commitments on taxing and borrowing before taking office?

 

[PTK]

I, like many, many others - including such radical communists such as the IFS - predicted the LP would attack workers.

So you did not predict that the Winter Fuel Allowance would be cut.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What was the better alternative that was on offer from the Tories?

Dunno if they'd have been better, but they might have borrowed more perhaps rather than introducing these cuts? Who knows? Tories generally borrow more than Labour in the day to day working of things.

Point is that Labour explicitly stated the ways in which they were not an alternative to the Tories by committing not to raise borrowing or certain taxes.

 

[PTK]

Dunno if they'd have been better, but they might have borrowed more perhaps rather than introducing these cuts? Who knows? Tories generally borrow more than Labour in the day to day working of things.

Point is that Labour explicitly stated the ways in which they were not an alternative to the Tories by committing not to raise borrowing or certain taxes.

Bloody hell. You have gone from arguing that a Labour government would be no better than a Conervative government to arguing that a Conservative government would be better. Where is your evidence that a Conservative government would make fewer cuts?

 

[redsquirrel]

No he hasn't. Are you genuinely this thick.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Bloody hell. You have gone from arguing that a Labour government would be no better than a Conervative government to arguing that a Conservative government would be better. Where is your evidence that a Conservative government would make fewer cuts?

Even the way you've posed the question shows the state we're in. Is that the choice? Which of the two will make fewest cuts?

 

[PTK]

Even the way you've posed the question shows the state we're in. Is that the choice? Which of the two will make fewest cuts?

You are claiming that a Conservative government would make fewer cuts that a Labour government. Where is your evidence for this claim?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You are claiming that a Conservative government would make fewer cuts that a Labour government. Where is your evidence for this claim?

No I'm not. I'm saying that I can conceive that a Tory government might have made fewer cuts.

It's not a given that this Labour government is less right wing than the self-proclaimed right wingers of the Conservative party. That's the current state we're in.

So the previous government left a mess and the medicine for treating it will cause pain but that pain is necessary. You know who said this kind of thing? Thatcher in 1979.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

So you did not predict that the Winter Fuel Allowance would be cut.

As killer points go, this one is a lot like throwing marshmallows at someone's head.

 

[The39thStep]

As killer points go, this one is a lot like throwing marshmallows at someone's head.

Not sure if PTK thinks redsquirrel is some sort of Mystic Meg

 

[Smokeandsteam]

You are claiming that a Conservative government would make fewer cuts that a Labour government. Where is your evidence for this claim?

Before the election both partied had the same spending plans. Both parties supported current taxation levels.

The dividing line was where the cuts would fall and who would be attacked.

Those who voted Labour did so with all of the above being absolutely certain.

Labour have since then decided that the proposed cuts don’t go far enough because of a ‘black hole’ that they say they have discovered, and that deeper cuts are needed.

Whilet at the moment pensioners and children have taken the hit Rachel Reeves has made clear more cuts are coming in the budget. We will see when she delivers the budget where these will fall and who will bear the brunt. This is speculation on my part but my guess is it won’t be the rich.

 

[two sheds]

There are all kinds of political problems with this position.
For a start it completely writes over the idea that people's material conditions are key to their politics, which contradicts the whole basis of class politics and socialism.
It also seems to have an underlying assumption that 'left wing' politics are somehow correct or natural and that subject to the correct media people would spontaneously move left.

It is also not supported by empirical evidence or history. There were elections where most Sun readers voted Labour despite the papers endorsement of the Tories. And if the media is the crucial element of forming people's politics why, and how, did socialism, anarchism, etc attract such mass support in its past - the media was as, if not more, hostile then?

EDIT: Nor does it explain the positive support for Corbyn or Sanders - both of which we attacked by the liberal and conservative press, if the media was the dominant factor in deciding people's politics then how did they attract such support when the media was almost universally hostile?

Yes fair enough. I still think my statement is overall correct though.

Infographic: General election voting by newspaper readership

I’m talking about the great majority of Telegraph, Express readers – much like the great majority of Guardian, Independent and Mirror readers - voting along with the editorial opinions of that paper. If they didn't agree with them they wouldn't be buying those papers.

Yes there are exceptions. Readers don't accept everything they read in the paper, but the information that people are given (I mentioned right wing papers but obviously that’s true on both sides) is the information they largely use to think with. A lot of that information (not all - also what they get from friends and family) comes from the media. And it’s not just the individual stories but the assumptions in the background that are constantly pushed that eventually people don't notice.

With advertising, for example, behind whatever is being sold are the assumptions of happy people being happy because they have a nice house and a nice car and two lovely kids playing happily etc etc. Pretty well all of the UK media assume that house price rises are “a good thing”, for example. It’s a drip drip drip that is bound to affect how we think.

And yes Corbyn and Sanders are good examples of exceptions. They were pushing things like nationalizing rail and energy companies and investing in the NHS that are very popular with the general public. That's very much to do with peoples' material conditions.

But yes I do believe that 'left wing' politics are somehow correct or natural and that subject to the correct media people would spontaneously move left. Or differently stated if people weren't subjected to the lies and distortion of the media (with Fox News as an extreme) they would spontaneously move towards a position that would actually benefit the majority of people rather than as we have now benefiting the few rich people who control the media.

I actually don't think I have many disagreements here - I'm just objecting to the idea that people should be ashamed of how they've voted. And as you've said that needs to be accepted across the board.

 

[PTK]

Whatever happens in politics, there are those who will say that it was obvious that that thing was going to happen, but beforehand they did not actually predict it.

Yes, you did not have to be clairvoyant to know that a Starmer government would make cuts in public expenditure.

The Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition government made massive cuts to expenditure on public services and social security, but it did not abolish the universal Winter Fuel Allowance.

I know of no-one who predicted that a Starmer government would abolish the universal Winter Fuel Allowance.

If someone claims that it was obvious to that the Winter Fuel Allowance would be cut by a Labour government, then they were remiss in not pointing this out in advance. Had people had wind of this, then perhaps they could have forced the Labour Party leadership, pre-election, to promise that it would retain the universal Winter Fuel Allowance.

If it was obvious to someone that the Winter Fuel Allowance would be cut, then they had a duty, in my opinion, to do something to try to stop it being cut.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You're being silly now.

You're stuck on this particular cut. But I can only repeat that attacking universalism is entirely within the new Labour playbook, and this is a prime example.

And yes, Cameron also attacked universalism with his cuts - notably child benefit and university tuition fees. Other examples of shit governments are also available.

 

[teuchter]

Before the election both partied had the same spending plans. Both parties supported current taxation levels.

The dividing line was where the cuts would fall and who would be attacked.

Those who voted Labour did so with all of the above being absolutely certain.

If only they had all done the morally correct action of spoiling their ballots, everything would have been better. We could have had a conservative government re-elected and 10 million people would have been shame-free.

 

[PTK]

You're being silly now.

You're stuck on this particular cut. But I can only repeat that attacking universalism is entirely within the new Labour playbook, and this is a prime example.

And yes, Cameron also attacked universalism with his cuts - notably child benefit and university tuition fees. Other examples of shit governments are also available.

I did not claim that Cameron did not attack universalism.

I wonder if you had even heard of the Winter Fuel Allowance before it was cut.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I did not claim that Cameron did not attack universalism.

I wonder if you had even heard of the Winter Fuel Allowance before it was cut.

Do you? That's nice.

Maybe step back, have a think, and wonder whether or not you have totally missed the point here.

You appear to have comprehension issues.

 

[PTK]

If only they had all done the morally correct action of spoiling their ballots, everything would have been better. We could have had a conservative government re-elected and 10 million people would have been shame-free.

The most politically aware action, of course, would be to draw a picture of a penis on your ballot paper, which would be a succinct way of expressing your opposition to the capitalist system and your call for a fairer form of society.

 

[PTK]

Do you? That's nice.

Maybe step back, have a think, and wonder whether or not you have totally missed the point here.

You appear to have comprehension issues.

What am I failing to comprehend?

Please explain.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The most politically aware action, of course, would be to draw a picture of a penis on your ballot paper, which would be a succinct way of expressing your opposition to the capitalist system and your call for a fairer form of society.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day..

 

[Smokeandsteam]

What am I failing to comprehend?

Almost everything seemingly.

 

[LakieLady]

At the next election I expect you to vote tory to get rid of the worst party of government you can remember in your lifetime

One good thing about living in an LD/Con marginal is that the chances of me ever being disappointed by what the party I voted for does when in government are vanishingly slim.

 

[PTK]

Almost everything seemingly.

Very enlightening.

 

[LakieLady]

And then Which? repeats some of the above and adds a few more brought on by or exacerbated by cold temperatures:

Asthma, COPD and other respiratory illnesses
Joint pain, arthritis and Raynaud's syndrome - I'd already mentioned arthritis and rheumatism, but this adds Raynaud's Syndrome (painful condition that affects the extremities in cold weather)

My late mother had Raynaud's, and her hands and feet would go a horrific looking colour if she got cold, sort of blue-white. It can be so severe that it can lead to gangrene. She also had hypothryoidism, which made her feel the cold more than normal. (I also have hypothyroidism, and feel really cold at 20C).

 

[Chz]

Yes fair enough. I still think my statement is overall correct though.
View attachment 442788
Infographic: General election voting by newspaper readership

I’m talking about the great majority of Telegraph, Express readers – much like the great majority of Guardian, Independent and Mirror readers - voting along with the editorial opinions of that paper. If they didn't agree with them they wouldn't be buying those papers.

Yes there are exceptions. Readers don't accept everything they read in the paper, but the information that people are given (I mentioned right wing papers but obviously that’s true on both sides) is the information they largely use to think with. A lot of that information (not all - also what they get from friends and family) comes from the media. And it’s not just the individual stories but the assumptions in the background that are constantly pushed that eventually people don't notice.

With advertising, for example, behind whatever is being sold are the assumptions of happy people being happy because they have a nice house and a nice car and two lovely kids playing happily etc etc. Pretty well all of the UK media assume that house price rises are “a good thing”, for example. It’s a drip drip drip that is bound to affect how we think.

And yes Corbyn and Sanders are good examples of exceptions. They were pushing things like nationalizing rail and energy companies and investing in the NHS that are very popular with the general public. That's very much to do with peoples' material conditions.

But yes I do believe that 'left wing' politics are somehow correct or natural and that subject to the correct media people would spontaneously move left. Or differently stated if people weren't subjected to the lies and distortion of the media (with Fox News as an extreme) they would spontaneously move towards a position that would actually benefit the majority of people rather than as we have now benefiting the few rich people who control the media.

I actually don't think I have many disagreements here - I'm just objecting to the idea that people should be ashamed of how they've voted. And as you've said that needs to be accepted across the board.

Based on combined readership, the Torys should have walked it. I think the main thing that chart shows is how irrelevant the papers are.

 

[two sheds]

Based on combined readership, the Torys should have walked it. I think the main thing that chart shows is how irrelevant the papers are.

Perhaps, but it also shows that people tend to vote with their paper's editorial stance.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What am I failing to comprehend?

Please explain.

I think my posts have been clear, but you've consistently misinterpreted them. So not sure I can help you further.

Maybe an exercise in which you go back and list the things you said I said that I did not say?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Perhaps, but it also shows that people tend to vote with their paper's editorial stance.

Yes but people will tend to choose the paper at least in part for its editorial stance so there are correlation/causation issues there.

 

[redsquirrel]

I’m talking about the great majority of Telegraph, Express readers – much like the great majority of Guardian, Independent and Mirror readers - voting along with the editorial opinions of that paper. If they didn't agree with them they wouldn't be buying those papers.\

Exactly, people tend to consume media that chimes with the political opinions they already hold. The papers are conforming to their readers. And of course it is worth pointing out that most voters do not read any paper.

But yes I do believe that 'left wing' politics are somehow correct or natural and that subject to the correct media people would spontaneously move left. Or differently stated if people weren't subjected to the lies and distortion of the media (with Fox News as an extreme) they would spontaneously move towards a position that would actually benefit the majority of people rather than as we have now benefiting the few rich people who control the media.

I actually don't think I have many disagreements here - I'm just objecting to the idea that people should be ashamed of how they've voted. And as you've said that needs to be accepted across the board.

I think we disagree far more fundamentally than you believe. The idea that there is a correct, more natural or more logical politics I consider a nonsense. I disagree strongly with liberal and conservative politics but I don't think they are in a fundamental sense necessarily incorrect. Aristotle's view that some deserve to have more than others because of who they are I oppose but it is not in any logical sense false.

Politics is the competition of power, under capitalism most crucially the power of labour, capital and states, i.e. the class struggle. And it is that interaction of classes that produces people's politics (and in turn is produced by their politics). Culture is of course one aspect of the class struggle but to see it as the main or determining factor is not substantiated by the evidence and focussing on the media has being part of the failure of the left over the last decades.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Based on combined readership, the Torys should have walked it. I think the main thing that chart shows is how irrelevant the papers are.

I don't think the papers are irrelevant. To an extent they reflect and set the news agenda, because the papers can be politically partisan in a way that broadcasters can't.

Example, the Daily Mail's rantings about immigrants has arguably been very influential. Ditto parroting the demonising rhetoric around benefits claimants about strivers versus skivers and workers versus shirkers, etc.