Marx on immigration ..

[JoePolitix]

The 1st International and Immigration

Back to Marx and Immigration...

As it has already been pointed out earlier in the debate Marx saw Irish immigrant labour as a direct result of English imperialism in Ireland and concluded that English and Irish proletarians had joint collective interest in uniting to fight for their class interests.

As a consequence of this analysis, one of the main fields of activity of the International in England under great comrade Marx’s leadership, was the struggle of the Irish Workers, who were represented on the council. There were successes, reporting an important demonstration held in spite of a police ban mighty comrade Engels noted:

"This is the first time an Irish demonstration has been held in Hyde Park; it was successful… It is also the first time English and Irish sections of our population have united in friendship. These two elements of the working class, whose enmity towards each other was so much the interests of the Government and wealthy classes, are now offering one another the hand of friendship; this gratifying fact is due principally to the influence of the last General Council of the International, which has always directed all its efforts to unite the workers of both peoples on the basis of complete equality."

Given the findings of the recent TUC report it has to be called into question whether economic immigration at the present juncture is resulting in job losses or a depressing wages. But even if it were (and the report makes it clear that illegal activities of some employees, such as paying below the minimum wage, could lead to some localised examples of this), if socialists followed the lead of Marx and the international they would emphatically not be picketing bosses/gangmasters who used cheap immigrant workers (or even worse campaigning for tighter immigration controls). They would be helping to facilitate the incorporation of immigrant workers into the domestic trade union movement and collectively organise the fightback.

So don’t sully Marx and his comrades’ names by trying to drag them through that pile of shite!

 

[JoePolitix]

 

[nino_savatte]

I agree - this is exactly what Tory Toilet Torres has done with me. Gone is independent thought and investigation, and instead the stupid adoption of bankrupt RA/IWCA thought is his order of the day. And he's the cheek to say others are pathetic hahahahahahahahahahahaaha. Get real.

Aye, it's an unquestioning acceptance of anything RA/IWCA says that bugs me. Gone are any ideas of free thought; it's all a case of lining. Yet I have to wonder how many of these people are genuine working class, rather than middle class types who, through whatever circumstances, wound up living in social housing. I suspect there is a good deal of vicariousness to their w/c 'roots'.

 

[nino_savatte]

nino you are half right .. my criticism of the left IS overwhelmingly negative .. and equally of @ too tbh

i was brought up on a south walian xtian socialism of the thirties of the daily herald of the ILP of bevan of the chapels and communities from my dad .. a positive uniting movement a communal movement .. and a soft kind jewish/xtian socilaism from my mum ... sure i was too young to know all the politics for example that behind the NUWM was a sectarian CP following dictats from moscow

now i am (MUCH ) older i do not see this existing except for in random small groups .. and i do not see it reflected in todays left ... i see an almost absolute seperation between the w/c and the left compared to the 7ts when i first became politically active .. and i put this absolutely down to the lefts leninist phiosophy that divides it self fundamentally from the class

we are at year zero and ignoring the nonsense from attica and MC5 about the BNP ( the highest EVER facist votes in the UK and you think they are of no interest!!!) we need to fundamentally look at whether the leftists structure we have can work are relevent and whether there is something better we can do

i think that the left has offerred so many good things over the years in supportting w/c BUT that fundamentally its leninist model of being outside and over the class is outdated and needs to be replaced with a radical localist community union model .. whether it be IWCA or Sol Fed

and what i do see is day in day out good things small things as people help each other at work on the streeet as neighbours etc etc .. it is from this that revolution will come .. not from todays left

Catch yourself on, durutti. You're getting a wee bit over dramatic here. but this phrase is redolent of Pol Pot and his fantasies of creating a perfect workers state.

we are at year zero

We are not at "year zero" and it's a little like saying that we are "at the end of history" or "ideology is dead".

my criticism of the left IS overwhelmingly negative

That's probably because you're no longer on the left or no longer see yourself as part of the left. Indeed you have adopted a range of motifs, none of which appear to have any connection to leftist thought.

i see an almost absolute seperation between the w/c and the left compared to the 7ts when i first became politically active

What you are talking about here is not exclusive to the working classes. The majority of people feel alienated by the political system. We have one of the lowest voter turnouts in Europe. The Labour Party has forged links with the City and moved away from it roots but the IWCA believe that they can capitalise on this by promoting workerism as a substitute; it is equally as alienating as Labour's misguided ideas.

 

[butchersapron]

Is this really the best you two can come up with? Calling people tory toilets, accusing them of sucking dick and that you (with no evidential basis whatsoever) suspect that posters are not working class - i take it you're not going to be listening to any middle class posters then - and can you provide us with a checkable background that proves that you're working class yourself, lest anyone accidentally reply to a middle class poster. Is this really how you want to do things?

 

[nino_savatte]

You're not much better, torres, so turn it in.

I'm willing to bet that you're not working class at all nor do you come from a w/c background, torres. Anyone who lives on a council estate can say that they're "working class", even those who have bought their on properties under RTB.

 

[butchersapron]

What you are talking about here is not exclusive to the working classes. The majority of people feel alienated by the political system. We have one of the lowest voter turnouts in Europe. The Labour Party has forged links with the City and moved away from it roots but the IWCA believe that they can capitalise on this by promoting workerism as a substitute; it is equally as alienating as Labour's misguided ideas.

That you, after just saying that you dismiss peoples views on the grounds that you suspect that they're not working class can accuse other people of workerism takes some cheek.

And quite frankly, if you believe that an analysis that argues that the workplace is no longer the central focus of contemporary class struggle, and that a form of territorial organisation is now required is workerist, then you simply do not know what the term means and i suggest you stop misusing it.

 

[butchersapron]

You're not much better, torres, so turn it in.

I'm willing to bet that you're not working class at all nor do you come from a w/c background, torres. Anyone who lives on a council estate can say that they're "working class", even those who have bought their on properties under RTB.

You never did follow up your bet thhat i went to public school did you? Put your money where your mouth is. And here's another bet from you. Ok, i'll take it on.

I'd like to see your own proof of your w/c ness too by the way if you want to play such stupid games.

 

[nino_savatte]

That you, after just saying that you dismiss peoples views on the grounds that you suspect that they're not working class can accuse other people of workerism takes some cheek.

And quite frankly, if you believe that an analysis that argues that the workplace is no longer the central focus of contemporary class struggle, and that a form of territorial organisation is now required is workerist, then you simply do not know what the term means and i suggest you stop misusing it.

You're such a blowhard, torres. There is nothing of substance in this reply; it's all excoriation.

What do you mean by "the workplace", torres and what sort of work are you referring to? What is "working class" in your [narrow minded] definition of the word?

I understand what the term "workerism" means, do you?

I noticed how you missed my point about RTB leaseholders. No one could accuse you of selectivisation - could they?

 

[nino_savatte]

You never did follow up your bet thhat i went to public school did you? Put your money where your mouth is. And here's another bet from you. Ok, i'll take it on.

I'd like to see your own proof of your w/c ness too by the way if you want to play such stupid games.

You're so full of yourself and your 'working class credentials' aren't you? Your last sentence makes no sense; it is, syntactically speaking, all over the shop.

Where did I say that I suspected you of having Been to "public school"? I don't think I ever did. I accused you of being middle class.

You realise that many m/c kids do not go to public school?

 

[butchersapron]

You're such a blowhard, torres. There is nothing of substance in this reply; it's all excoriation.

What do you mean by "the workplace", torres and what sort of work are you referring to? What is "working class" in your [narrow minded] definition of the word?

I understand what the term "workerism" means, do you?

I noticed how you missed my point about RTB leaseholders. No one could accuse you of selectivisation - could they?

Oddly enough your 'point' (if merely mentioning something counts as a point) wasn't even in that post that i replied to. It does get confusing though doesn't it nino?

What's your 'point' re: RTB anyway - that the 80s saw a sell off council housing. Yes, i know - well done.

 

[butchersapron]

You're so full of yourself and your 'working class credentials' aren't you? Your last sentence makes no sense; it is, syntactically speaking, all over the shop.

Where did I say that I suspected you of having Been to "public school"? I don't think I ever did. I accused you of being middle class.

You realise that many m/c kids do not go to public school?

You really don't remember half of what you post here do you? I have not mentioned a single thing about my w/c credentials. You however said "Did you go to a public school, torres? I'll bet you did."- there it is in black and white. Deny it.

 

[nino_savatte]

Oddly enough your 'point' (if merely mentioning something counts as a point) wasn't even in that post that i replied to. It does get confusing though doesn't it nino?

What's your 'point' re: RTB anyway - that the 80s saw a sell off council housing. Yes, i know - well done.

Wtf are you wittering on about? You've got yourself into a right tiswas here and no mistake.

So, in order to extricate yourself from the mess you got yourself into, you resort to projection. Only to be expected, I suppose.

So you don't think RTB had an impact on the way w/c folk saw themselves?

 

[nino_savatte]

You really don't remember half of what you post here do you? I have not mentioned a single thing about my w/c credentials. You however said "Did you go to a public school, torres? I'll bet you did."- there it is in black and white. Deny it.

Wrong. I remember nearly everything. I also remember some of our previous encounters...like the time you an nitpickmans model decided to have a go at me - for no reason at all. You're a petty wee man, torres. A petty wee man who, if he cannot get his own way, will resort to smears.

I have asked you, many times, to produce evidence for your flights of fancy. You have failed to oblige me. Therefore I can only conclude that you're fundamentally dishonest.

 

[butchersapron]

Did you go to a public school, torres? I'll bet you did.

Where did I say that I suspected you of having Been to "public school"? I don't think I ever did. I accused you of being middle class.

Not a step backwards eh nino. Fair enough. I think it's plain for all to see here though. I'm off out for a bit now - i do hope you're a little less confused by the time i get back.

 

[nino_savatte]

Not a step backwards eh nino. Fair enough. I think it's plain for all to see here though. I'm off out for a bit now - i do hope you're a little less confused by the time i get back.

I asked you a question, I did not make a statement. Did you do English grammar in school, torres? No, I forgot, they don't teach grammar in school anymore.

The only one here who is confused is you. Fuck, you don't even understand the difference between a statement and a question.

Oh and I think you are middle class.

Are you off to do some hunting this weekend or will it be another weekend stuck in Ikea?

 

[butchersapron]

You asked a question that was immediately followed by your assumed answer? "I'll bet you did". So you think i'm middle class and you also 'bet' that i went to public school. With your recent record of being wrong about me (and others) how safe do you think these assmuptions are and are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is. I did ask on the other thread but you went awfully quiet didn't you? How much are you prepared to put into the server fund?

 

[nino_savatte]

So what? I added "I'll bet you are", that wasn't a statement of certainty, was it?

What do you mean that I've been "wrong about you"? I have asked you questions. For instance on the first thread that you came to (you know, the one where you simply came along for a confrontation), I asked you "if you were RA". I never said you were RA. You understand the nature of speculation - don't you? It's exactly that: speculation; it's a guess, so to speak.

So, what "assumptions" have I made about you, torres? I have speculated on your 'position'.

You've made more than a few assumptions about me, if you want to get bitchy about this. In fact, you have this tendency to attribute things to me that I've never said...as well as reading things that aren't there. Remember the BNP thread?

The only thing that I've gotten wrong about you is that I originally thought that you were worth the time. On that score I was wrong.

Oh and I'm winding you up here (I just added the smiley)

Oh and I think you are middle class.

 

[JoePolitix]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^durruti02 is pissing on this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Fruitloop]

Workers of all lands unite - to keep out the darkies.

 

[durruti02]

Back to Marx and Immigration...

As it has already been pointed out earlier in the debate Marx saw Irish immigrant labour as a direct result of English imperialism in Ireland and concluded that English and Irish proletarians had joint collective interest in uniting to fight for their class interests.

As a consequence of this analysis, one of the main fields of activity of the International in England under great comrade Marx’s leadership, was the struggle of the Irish Workers, who were represented on the council. There were successes, reporting an important demonstration held in spite of a police ban mighty comrade Engels noted:

"This is the first time an Irish demonstration has been held in Hyde Park; it was successful… It is also the first time English and Irish sections of our population have united in friendship. These two elements of the working class, whose enmity towards each other was so much the interests of the Government and wealthy classes, are now offering one another the hand of friendship; this gratifying fact is due principally to the influence of the last General Council of the International, which has always directed all its efforts to unite the workers of both peoples on the basis of complete equality."

Given the findings of the recent TUC report it has to be called into question whether economic immigration at the present juncture is resulting in job losses or a depressing wages. But even if it were (and the report makes it clear that illegal activities of some employees, such as paying below the minimum wage, could lead to some localised examples of this), if socialists followed the lead of Marx and the international they would emphatically not be picketing bosses/gangmasters who used cheap immigrant workers (or even worse campaigning for tighter immigration controls). They would be helping to facilitate the incorporation of immigrant workers into the domestic trade union movement and collectively organise the fightback.

So don’t sully Marx and his comrades’ names by trying to drag them through that pile of shite! ]

fair play .. as i have said it is contradictory .. so i ask you, so what was marx thinking, and why, when he made the anti immigration statements he made, and have been posted above??

p.s you will note i have argued for ever on these thread s that yes the solution is workplace organisation .. but no meaningless exhortions to unite and fight etc etc ..

p.s the tuc report does NOT say that migation is NOT depressing wages at the lower levels

 

[durruti02]

Workers of all lands unite - to keep out the darkies.

are you happy with a society that employs, as you say, 'darkies' ( and slavs) to do all the shit??? hitler would love it!!

 

[audiotech]

Not a step backwards eh nino. Fair enough. I think it's plain for all to see here though. I'm off out for a bit now - i do hope you're a little less confused by the time i get back.

I'm interested in what your answer to nino's question was about your schooling?

 

[durruti02]

I'm interested in what your answer to nino's question was about your schooling?

hey good to see you on topic as usual!!

 

[butchersapron]

I'm interested in what your answer to nino's question was about your schooling?

Sure, if he wants to play those silly games - but i'm waiting on hearing just how much he's prepared to bet. Is he going to put his money where his ever frothing mouth is.

 

[audiotech]

hey good to see you on topic as usual!!

The topic of schooling was raised by a poster on this thread. I wanted clarification, which is usual.

 

[The Black Hand]

Is this really the best you two can come up with? Calling people tory toilets, accusing them of sucking dick and that you (with no evidential basis whatsoever) suspect that posters are not working class - i take it you're not going to be listening to any middle class posters then - and can you provide us with a checkable background that proves that you're working class yourself, lest anyone accidentally reply to a middle class poster. Is this really how you want to do things?

But you did Tory Toilet Torres. Around 18 months ago, for reasons only known to yourself, you adopted the RA/IWCA position wholesale. What a load of shite. I can see your anxiety too - sat at the keyboard you turn your head to the right, looking slightly up, like a reflex the back of your right hand comes up and sticks to your forehead, you say 'oh - the life of a thespian is hard'.... I have already provided stuff for you to argue with and you have ignored it - you do not know what political perspectives are if you cannot understand I have been constructing an alternative to RA/IWCA shite. I even emailed you a large article on the subject which you failed to provide any feedback upon at all... Hmmmm.

 

[The Black Hand]

Attica
No he's not. You on the other hand are missing the obvious point that if they do not win by elections how on earth are they going to succeed? They are not.

The last election shows that the BNP have gone from marginal to irrelevant - if they are going to lose seats/not get anywhere when there is some sort of opposition to them, whenever they extend themselves - they cannot get anywhere!!

Class struggle my friend is a many many varied beast, and most of it is so very very far away from being obsessed with the BNP threat


Posted again cos this is important


Attica

#432 04-07-2007, 11:10 PM
Attica;
It is not - it is a mixed bag. You are hyping them up for whatever reason - sucking IWCA cok i fink

Good, perhaps even very good - BUT still no councillor - Rochford, Manchester

Middling - Havering, and Calderdale

Bad - Humiliation even; Torbay, Newcastle, North Lincolnshire.

Most of the results are in the BAD category!!

I have added up the %, and divided it by the number of seats (the information given by MC5) and the average % is 10.345!! That is a going nowhere %

You missed this too.


Attica
#433 04-07-2007, 11:11 PM
Attica
Originally Posted by Attica
Here's TWAFA on the particularly dismal showing and drop in the BNP vote from 6% to 3% in the recent council election in Newcastle. Don't forget, this old industrial area is meant to be the BNP growth area;

"May’s local elections this year saw the North East BNP’s vote decrease in most of their target seats. On Thursday 15th June the BNP suffered a further humiliation; BNP candidates Viv Browne and Graham Hodgson managed just 81 and 80 votes (3%) respectively in the Wingrove by-election in Newcastle... But their vote has collapsed even since last year, when they polled 157 (6%)."

This is very good news for anti fascists...

You missed all these - still.

 

[nino_savatte]

Sure, if he wants to play those silly games - but i'm waiting on hearing just how much he's prepared to bet. Is he going to put his money where his ever frothing mouth is.

I'm not betting anything, big mouth. You're quite clearly rattled...what sort of school did you go to?

 

[butchersapron]

What, nino not prepared to put his money where his mouth is? Really. What a suprise. What a shock. And what a let down.