Marx on immigration ..

[nino_savatte]

i am for workers control .. of everything .. be it immigration housing wages or art

Are you familiar with the term "workerism", durutti?

You've never given any opinions on the nature of art either, though you mention it here. Is an artist a "worker" or does that depend on the art that he/she has produced or the socio-economic background of the artist?

 

[TremulousTetra]

what did Marx suggest was the correct strategy for indigenous and immigrant workers? "Workers of the world unite, all you have to lose his your chains".

 

[durruti02]

You're the only one here is who is being wierd, durutti. I've already proven that Marx wasn't commenting on immigration as an "evil" nor was he, as you suggested, saying that the Irish were stealing jobs from the English. He was discussing the problems associated with fomenting a revolution in this country and he saw Ireland as the place where this could happen. Indeed, there was a point in time when Ireland could have become a socialist republic, until Fianna Fail decided to hijack the revolution and declare itself "The True Republican Party".

You should read some Irish history, you'd learn a lot from it.

This is all some sort of game for you. It's tedious.

no it is not a game .. when i was young we had strong unions and a strong left .. we now have neither and a strong far right to boot .. we need to be debating openly how to rebuild .. it is again instructive that you do not seem interested in the is process

you again are decitfull .. no one has EVER suggested marx said immigration was evil ( where do you invent this nonsense!!! ) .. nor that the irish were stealing jobs!!! ( ditto .. where do you imagine this stuff!!) you then blather on about ireland , which i suspect i know as much as you about, ignoring that marx said clearly these things below which are NOTHING to do with creating revolution in ireland

.." by importing Chinese rabble to depress wages"

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1869/letters/69_08_10.htm


"..Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class..."

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm

"Then, and more especially, immigration, which divides the workers into two groups: the native-born and the foreigners, and the latter in turn into (1) the Irish, (2) the Germans, (3) the many small groups, each of which understands only itself: Czechs, Poles, Italians, Scandinavians, etc. And then the Negroes. To form a single party out of these requires quite unusually powerful incentives. Often there is a sudden violent elan, but the bourgeois need only wait passively, and the dissimilar elements of the working class fall apart again."

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1893/letters/93_12_02.htm

 

[durruti02]

Are you familiar with the term "workerism", durutti?

You've never given any opinions on the nature of art either, though you mention it here. Is an artist a "worker" or does that depend on the art that he/she has produced or the socio-economic background of the artist?

interesting question .. though really one for another thread surely??? one day maybe you and me will talk about these issues more .. but here and now i think immigration IS A KEY ISSUE for the left and how we respond to it .. maybe wrongly our stance ideas on art are NOT that important

p.s. my favourite art is blaue reiter and favourite artist lyonel feininger ... and after that turner, then goldsworthy .. and a bit of futurism! did you get to the esoteric at highburyto see the russian futurist exhibition .. i took a day off to go .. and it was closed .. dope

 

[northernhord]

fuckin L, i aint with pcing today

 

[northernhord]

mistake, wrong thread

 

[nino_savatte]

no it is not a game .. when i was young we had strong unions and a strong left .. we now have neither and a strong far right to boot .. we need to be debating openly how to rebuild .. it is again instructive that you do not seem interested in the is process

you again are decitfull .. no one has EVER suggested marx said immigration was evil ( where do you invent this nonsense!!! ) .. nor that the irish were stealing jobs!!! ( ditto .. where do you imagine this stuff!!) you then blather on about ireland , which i suspect i know as much as you about, ignoring that marx said clearly these things below which are NOTHING to do with creating revolution in ireland

.." by importing Chinese rabble to depress wages"

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1869/letters/69_08_10.htm


"..Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class..."

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm

"Then, and more especially, immigration, which divides the workers into two groups: the native-born and the foreigners, and the latter in turn into (1) the Irish, (2) the Germans, (3) the many small groups, each of which understands only itself: Czechs, Poles, Italians, Scandinavians, etc. And then the Negroes. To form a single party out of these requires quite unusually powerful incentives. Often there is a sudden violent elan, but the bourgeois need only wait passively, and the dissimilar elements of the working class fall apart again."

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1893/letters/93_12_02.htm

You keep making up things, durutti. You claim that I

suggested marx said immigration was evil ( where do you invent this nonsense!!! ) .. nor that the irish were stealing jobs!!! ( ditto .. where do you imagine this stuff!!) you then blather on about ireland , which i suspect i know as much as you about, ignoring that marx said clearly these things below which are NOTHING to do with creating revolution in ireland

I never said anything of the kind. Please learn to read and comprehend or learn to stop lying.

You used this quote to support your thesis

"..Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class..."

So what do you think that means? Oh and I never suggested that Marx was "evil", that's another lie.

 

[nino_savatte]

interesting question .. though really one for another thread surely??? one day maybe you and me will talk about these issues more .. but here and now i think immigration IS A KEY ISSUE for the left and how we respond to it .. maybe wrongly our stance ideas on art are NOT that important

p.s. my favourite art is blaue reiter and favourite artist lyonel feininger ... and after that turner, then goldsworthy .. and a bit of futurism! did you get to the esoteric at highburyto see the russian futurist exhibition .. i took a day off to go .. and it was closed .. dope

I don't think it's for "another thread". Are artists workers or not?

You keep talking about the "Left" as though they are the enemy. I never hear how "the left can achieve such and such" or "the key task for the left is...". Instead, all I hear is "the failure of the left" or words to the effect of "socialism is dead". No wonder no progress can be made and it is no wonder the right capitalise on the disarray of the left time and time again: you're too busy engaging in sectarian pointscoring.

 

[durruti02]

I don't think it's for "another thread". Are artists workers or not?

You keep talking about the "Left" as though they are the enemy. I never hear how "the left can achieve such and such" or "the key task for the left is...". Instead, all I hear is "the failure of the left" or words to the effect of "socialism is dead". No wonder no progress can be made and it is no wonder the right capitalise on the disarray of the left time and time again: you're too busy engaging in sectarian pointscoring.

no not point scoring nino .. looking at maybe where we have gone wrong .. its not like we are riding high is it??? do you think there is no need for in depth analysis? for looking back at marx or what ever? at listenning to what people on the street say??

you do not seem to do any of this but seem happy with things as they are! with the left irrelevent and miniscule and being eclipsed by the BNP

when would it be right nino to have a radical re think?

the question if the disarray of the left/@ is interesting .. i am happy to locate it in the xtian/leninist/bakuninist traditions of schism of cult of sect of being alone in being correct .. it is precisely this nonsense that needs to be got rid of .. until it is the left/@ will always be in disarray

 

[audiotech]

no not point scoring nino .. looking at maybe where we have gone wrong .. its not like we are riding high is it??? do you think there is no need for in depth analysis? for looking back at marx or what ever? at listenning to what people on the street say??

you do not seem to do any of this but seem happy with things as they are! with the left irrelevent and miniscule and being eclipsed by the BNP

Let's not big them up shall we? The BNP are also miniscule, their activist base is limited and their organisational structure is weak. They are also having problems financially and an increasing vocal faction want rid of Griffin. Oh and they haven't won an election since 2004.

 

[butchersapron]

Let's not big them up shall we? The BNP are also miniscule, their activist base is limited and their organisational structure is weak. They are also having problems financially and an increasing vocal faction want rid of Griffin. Oh and they haven't won an election since 2004.

You what?

 

[audiotech]

You what?

Sorry, I don't know what came over me, I meant a council seat.

British National Party morale and finances plummet to all-time low.

 

[butchersapron]

They didn't win 11 council seats in Barking and single seats in Epping Forest, Stoke-on-Trent and Sandwell in 2006 then?

No, of course they didn't - it's all going marevellously - 50 seats plus in 10 years.

 

[audiotech]

They didn't win 11 council seats in Barking and single seats in Epping Forest, Stoke-on-Trent and Sandwell in 2006 then?

No, of course they didn't - it's all going marevellously - 50 seats plus in 10 years.

Sorry, what I meant to say was that the BNP has not won a council by-election since 2004 - since September of that year in fact.

That does not make me complacent and neither am I a pessimist.

 

[butchersapron]

It makes you elavating a non-suprising point given the resources poured by mainstream parties into bye-elections to normaility and painting a very false picture (see above figues).

 

[The Black Hand]

It makes you elavating a non-suprising point given the resources poured by mainstream parties into bye-elections to normaility and painting a very false picture (see above figues).

No he's not. You on the other hand are missing the obvious point that if they do not win by elections how on earth are they going to succeed? They are not.

The last election shows that the BNP have gone from marginal to irrelevant - if they are going to lose seats/not get anywhere when there is some sort of opposition to them, whenever they extend themselves - they cannot get anywhere!!

Class struggle my friend is a many many varied beast, and most of it is so very very far away from being obsessed with the BNP threat

 

[audiotech]

Recent figures from by-elections last month give the BNP 11.7 percent in Calderdale: Warley
Manchester: Charlestown 25 percent
Torbay: Berryhead with Furzeham (three seats) Each BNP candidate 5 percent
Newcasle: Wingrove (two seats) 3.3 each.
Havering: St Andres 18 percent
North Lincolnshire: Brigg and Wolds (three seats) BNP 4.3 and 3.9 percent
Rochford: Hockley North 29.3 percent

A mixed bag really and not a winner for the BNP amongst any of them.

 

[butchersapron]

Recent figures from by-elections last month give the BNP 11.7 percent in Calderdale: Warley
Manchester: Charlestown 25 percent
Torbay: Berryhead with Furzeham (three seats) Each BNP candidate 5 percent
Newcasle: Wingrove (two seats) 3.3 each.
Havering: St Andres 18 percent
North Lincolnshire: Brigg and Wolds (three seats) BNP 4.3 and 3.9 percent
Rochford: Hockley North 29.3 percent

A mixed bag really and not a winner for the BNP amongst any of them.

That's a series of very healthy figures - ones that if mirrored by the left would undoubtdly be spoken of as some sort of breakthrough - esp when mapped againt two context determining things a) regional spread b) time active in the ward.

 

[The Black Hand]

Here's TWAFA on the particularly dismal showing and drop in the BNP vote from 6% to 3% in the recent council election in Newcastle. Don't forget, this old industrial area is meant to be the BNP growth area;

"May’s local elections this year saw the North East BNP’s vote decrease in most of their target seats. On Thursday 15th June the BNP suffered a further humiliation; BNP candidates Viv Browne and Graham Hodgson managed just 81 and 80 votes (3%) respectively in the Wingrove by-election in Newcastle... But their vote has collapsed even since last year, when they polled 157 (6%)."

This is very good news for anti fascists...

 

[audiotech]

That's a series of very healthy figures - ones that if mirrored by the left would undoubtdly be spoken of as some sort of breakthrough - esp when mapped againt two context determining things a) regional spread b) time active in the ward.

The BNP need to be winning and yet, despite the favourite climate, are not.

 

[butchersapron]

The BNP need to be winning and yet, despite the favourite climate, are not.

What do you mean by 'winning'? Consolidating and normalising their vote is 'winning' - doing the groundwork and laying the conditions for future victories is 'winning'. They don't need to win a billion seat seach set of elections.

You cannot run out this line any more - 'they're going backwards' 'they're going nowhere' - the same line has been trotted out since the early 90s. They now have 50 plus seats and serious in-place organisation across large parts of the country. They didn't have either of these things before.

 

[audiotech]

What do you mean by 'winning'? Consolidating and normalising their vote is 'winning' - doing the groundwork and laying the conditions for future victories is 'winning'. They don't need to win a billion seat seach set of elections.

You cannot run out this line any more - 'they're going backwards' 'they're going nowhere' - the same line has been trotted out since the early 90s. They now have 50 plus seats and serious in-place organisation across large parts of the country. They didn't have either of these things before.

Serious in-place organisation?

Like the Sheffield branch perhaps?

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, despite that/them.

Never mind though, i'm sure the idea that the far right are on the run is mirrored by reality.

 

[audiotech]

Here's Carl Newman of another 'in-place' BNP branch.

Some memorable words too from Carl, or is it really 'Karl'.

I used to take part in battle re-enactments but I haven't done much of that lately. I have only been in the BNP for a year. I am not a racist. I have Jamaican and Asian friends and a Polish employee.

 

[butchersapron]

How many seats? That people vote for these clowns - and in far larger numbers than they vote for left candidates should make you at least pause to question question the utility of the above 'they're going nowhere' line. A picture means nothing.

 

[The Black Hand]

That's a series of very healthy figures - ones that if mirrored by the left would undoubtdly be spoken of as some sort of breakthrough - esp when mapped againt two context determining things a) regional spread b) time active in the ward.

It is not - it is a mixed bag. You are hyping them up for whatever reason - sucking IWCA cok i fink

Good, perhaps even very good - BUT still no councillor - Rochford, Manchester

Middling - Havering, and Calderdale

Bad - Humiliation even; Torbay, Newcastle, North Lincolnshire.

Most of the results are in the BAD category!!

I have added up the %, and divided it by the number of seats (the information given by MC5) and the average % is 10.345!! That is a going nowhere %

 

[mk12]

sucking IWCA cok i fink

Insightful analysis from Attica once again.

 

[The Black Hand]

How many seats? That people vote for these clowns - and in far larger numbers than they vote for left candidates should make you at least pause to question question the utility of the above 'they're going nowhere' line. A picture means nothing.

I think you are underestimating the general public - if that is the BNP Sheffield Branch they are going NOWHERE (in Sheffield at least). Get Real Toryes, you have gone all swoony eyed, lost your independent perspective and got a wierd one... Not unlike other sad 'realists'...

 

[The Black Hand]

Insightful analysis from Attica once again.

Truth hurts pal

 

[audiotech]

How many seats? That people vote for these clowns - and in far larger numbers than they vote for left candidates should make you at least pause to question question the utility of the above 'they're going nowhere' line. A picture means nothing.

A picture can mean a thousand words, or a thousand lost votes.

And words can play their part too.

BNP men planned bombs for 'race war'