Marx on immigration ..

[nino_savatte]

I think the situation is somewhat comparable to the US in the early 20th century. The AFL had no interest in unionising low skilled workers and even less interest in unionising low skill immigrant workers. But it was in this sort of circumstance that the IWW came about, and was when it was at its most vital.

One thing I want to note is that the IWW had (and indeed have) a syndicalist ideology that I reject. Unions are basically defensive organisations. It took a country like the US where the labour movement was weak to produce the IWW and I would see its formation as a rear-guard action in practice. However there's lot to be learnt from it.

To answer your question, the TUC are hopeless. Good UNISON, GMB etc. branches can work well, but they are few and far between. In my experience.

I think today's unions need to rethink their strategies. They also need to be more "bottom up" than "top down". Better still, it may be time for new unions that are more focussed on workers than aggrandising their leadership. As far as I'm concerned there is only one decent union in this country and that's the RMT.

I'm only wary of syndicalism when it appears to embrace the rhetoric and ideas of nationalism.

 

[audiotech]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knotted
Not only are there far too many who think its easy to scapegoat immigrants, there are also far too many who think that there are no conclusions to be drawn about the large increase in immigration in recent years.

Originally Posted by Durruti02
spot on ..



i refer you to what i have written over the last 2 years .. i think you have read some of it ( p.s. a shortened version just for you is ,y conclusion is that this large increase is directly related to neo liberalism and its demand for cheap labour .. what you thought i was going to say VOTE BNP!!

No, I thought you might be calling on the state and trade union bureaucracy for further controls on workers, with watch-towers and border guards.

 

[durruti02]

There is only one problem with this: you risk appeasing the BNP and other far right parties, whose sole aim is to drive a wedge between sections of the working class. I have already stated that this notion that immigrants "take priority over natives" in social housing is a myth, yet you seem unwilling even to look at the evidence and would much rather accept the myth as fact.

the risk of appeasing the BNP is NIL if they are opposed with what i am suggesting .. on class anti-neo-liberal and absolutely anti racist lines

the danger is that by NOT enagaing the BNP head on with facts instead of leftist moralism we are losing hands down to them in this country .. this is disasterous

p.s. you are wrong about housing .. but leave that to the griffin thread .. yes that myth is true .. but immigrants are usually in more need .. that is why they get housed .. not beacuse they are immigrants

 

[durruti02]

I think today's unions need to rethink their strategies. They also need to be more "bottom up" than "top down". Better still, it may be time for new unions that are more focussed on workers than aggrandising their leadership. As far as I'm concerned there is only one decent union in this country and that's the RMT.

I'm only wary of syndicalism when it appears to embrace the rhetoric and ideas of nationalism.

we agree on this

and yes some american syndicalists did become very nationalist ..

 

[durruti02]

No, I thought you might be calling on the state and trade union bureaucracy for further controls on workers, with watch-towers and border guards.

and you would be soooooooo wrong

i refer you to the 'immigration and pull' thread .. no spiv employers = no mass cheap labour immigration .. problem solved .. then better for refugees and all

 

[nino_savatte]

the risk of appeasing the BNP is NIL if they are opposed with what i am suggesting .. on class anti-neo-liberal and absolutely anti racist lines

the danger is that by NOT enagaing the BNP head on with facts instead of leftist moralism we are losing hands down to them in this country .. this is disasterous

p.s. you are wrong about housing .. but leave that to the griffin thread .. yes that myth is true .. but immigrants are usually in more need .. that is why they get housed .. not beacuse they are immigrants

You fail to understand something: you cannot fight the BNP by adopting their rhetoric on immigration. You have to welcome, yes, welcome, new arrivals in the community; make them feel welcome; learn about their customs and their culture. But this isn't happening, immigrants are regarded with suspicion and mistrust. Why? Because all the usual myths are being rounded up and transmitted once again by the BNP and there are many who will agree with them.

And why am I "wrong" about housing? Do you know anyone who works in housing? I suspect that you just didn't like what I said and have now decided to make some bold but shoddy claims that I am "wrong".

 

[durruti02]

You fail to understand something: you cannot fight the BNP by adopting their rhetoric on immigration. You have to welcome, yes, welcome, new arrivals in the community; make them feel welcome; learn about their customs and their culture. But this isn't happening, immigrants are regarded with suspicion and mistrust. Why? Because all the usual myths are being rounded up and transmitted once again by the BNP and there are many who will agree with them.

And why am I "wrong" about housing? Do you know anyone who works in housing? I suspect that you just didn't like what I said and have now decided to make some bold but shoddy claims that I am "wrong".

i do not FAIL to understand this at all .. and i agree migrants should be welcomed as individuals .. i always do that at my work ( which i supect has a higher level of migrants than most who post on urban) .. this debate is about processes

1) i have NOT adopted BNP rhetoric on migration ( look at what they say ... it is very differrent) .. but the fact is that the way people think is ALWAYS related , to an extent , to MATERIAL conditions .. yes it is wound up by the press and far right etc , BUT BUT BUT until the material conditions of a rampant capitalism USING migrants to push down wages and union organisation are dealt with or challenged by the w/c movemnet NO moral arguments will work .. that is a fact ..

2) i accept what you say that immigrants are NOT given any priority for being immigrants .. the issue is that they tend to have greater NEED than locals .. please reply on the griffin thread .. this is the marx thread

 

[durruti02]

There is only one problem with this: you risk appeasing the BNP and other far right parties, whose sole aim is to drive a wedge between sections of the working class. I have already stated that this notion that immigrants "take priority over natives" in social housing is a myth, yet you seem unwilling even to look at the evidence and would much rather accept the myth as fact.

i do not accept that by dealing with real material conditions as regards cheap labour economy we are appeasing the BNP .. no ideology can survive without material issues .. but you are right to say we must sift out the myths .. see the grifin thread

 

[durruti02]

Well done for signing up the Lithuanian. Now you need to sign up all the others. If anything, most immigrants would only be too happy to join a union; they don't want to be exploited any more than any of us does.

I overheard a conversation in one of my local pubs yesterday afternoon (I wasn't drinking btw), where this one bloke, who looked as though he'd been there all day, was moaning about Chinese and Japanese (sic) "sneaking into the country". He said "We'll all have to learn their language". There is a great deal of ignorance like this out there, how would you propose to deal with it...or are you prepared to let such people wallow in their ignorance?

i will sign up all who i can .. she was keen ..

yes i agree with you there is a GREAT deal of ignorence and prejudice and racism in how this is playing .. but this is precisely my point on how we deal with this ..

we can not go to people and tell them just to accept situations that materially dis-advanatge them can we?? and all the evidence points to migration being used by the bosses to hold down wages particulalry in the low wage sector

if you saw my attempt at synthesis a few months ago it was quite clear that while i think we need a MAJOR prop offensive against the bosses and state over low wage migration it HAS TO BE side by side with anti racism campaign that is ex/implicit that there is NO blame attached to migrants etc .. ( tbh i find most people do NOT blame migrants but the govt. where i would blame the bosses more )

 

[nino_savatte]

i do not FAIL to understand this at all .. and i agree migrants should be welcomed as individuals .. i always do that at my work ( which i supect has a higher level of migrants than most who post on urban) .. this debate is about processes

1) i have NOT adopted BNP rhetoric on migration ( look at what they say ... it is very differrent) .. but the fact is that the way people think is ALWAYS related , to an extent , to MATERIAL conditions .. yes it is wound up by the press and far right etc , BUT BUT BUT until the material conditions of a rampant capitalism USING migrants to push down wages and union organisation are dealt with or challenged by the w/c movemnet NO moral arguments will work .. that is a fact ..

2) i accept what you say that immigrants are NOT given any priority for being immigrants .. the issue is that they tend to have greater NEED than locals .. please reply on the griffin thread .. this is the marx thread

Your language isn't that different to what the Right say on immigration.

You're far too obsessed with this subject to have anything other than sinister motives.

I've noticed that you have nothing to say on The War on Terror, transport, the environment, the Middle East or anything that is related to events outside of this country's borders. It's all immigration, immigration, immigration.

You are Enoch Powell and I claim my £5.

 

[nino_savatte]

i will sign up all who i can .. she was keen ..

yes i agree with you there is a GREAT deal of ignorence and prejudice and racism in how this is playing .. but this is precisely my point on how we deal with this ..

we can not go to people and tell them just to accept situations that materially dis-advanatge them can we?? and all the evidence points to migration being used by the bosses to hold down wages particulalry in the low wage sector

if you saw my attempt at synthesis a few months ago it was quite clear that while i think we need a MAJOR prop offensive against the bosses and state over low wage migration it HAS TO BE side by side with anti racism campaign that is ex/implicit that there is NO blame attached to migrants etc .. ( tbh i find most people do NOT blame migrants but the govt. where i would blame the bosses more )

You don't seem to be doing a great deal to build bridges with immigrants. Though this seems to be an isolated case of humanitarianism on your part.

So you don't think that there is a contradiction in your position here?

 

[durruti02]

You don't seem to be doing a great deal to build bridges with immigrants. Though this seems to be an isolated case of humanitarianism on your part.

So you don't think that there is a contradiction in your position here?

i build bridges where and how i can ..

p.s. this was the Marx thread .. did you have nothing more to say on what he thought on migration?

 

[durruti02]

Your language isn't that different to what the Right say on immigration.

You're far too obsessed with this subject to have anything other than sinister motives.

I've noticed that you have nothing to say on The War on Terror, transport, the environment, the Middle East or anything that is related to events outside of this country's borders. It's all immigration, immigration, immigration.

You are Enoch Powell and I claim my £5.

to repeat ...

the language is ENTIRELY differrent .. the BNP are simply racist .. and do they and UKIP argue that this is part of rebuidling the w/c against the bosses?? of course not!!! FFS

.. tbh it is worrying that you can not see the differrence .. and to me this is why the left has shown itself incapable of dealing with this issue on the streets ..

it is only immigration immigration immigration on here mate .. i think it is a fundmental issue that the left have got very wrong .. these are debating threads .. we we work out what is right and wrong ..

p.s. war on terror?? its bullshit obviously .. like immigration control an attempt to attack and divide sections of the w/c .. there is a war for oil and they seek to demonise the opposition .. is it a priority though ?? No .. my simple answer? don't drive!!

transport?? .. much closer to my heart than immigration .. i cycle everywhere .. simple answer .. everybody in this country should be GIVEN a free bike or scooter .. ( p.s. i started a thread i think on doing a massive job swop so people do not have to commute .. mayeb it was just a post)

the environment ?? my main interest outside of class issue .. i put myself thru birbeck to do an environmental degree .. simple answers?? .. FREE solar panels for all houses .. micro generation ..

middle east .. depressing .. actually i am more sympathetic than most to israelis .. sure the state is essentially relegious facist ( read a lot of lennie brenner many years ago) but what the fuck else can they do!! i argue for a one state / or federal solution

p.s. will not reply on here to naything else aprt from marx now ..

 

[nino_savatte]

i build bridges where and how i can ..

p.s. this was the Marx thread .. did you have nothing more to say on what he thought on migration?

You've used Marx to prop up your weird ideas on immigration and I have already indicated that you have lifted certain quotes out of context in order to do this.

 

[nino_savatte]

to repeat ...

the language is ENTIRELY differrent .. the BNP are simply racist .. and do they and UKIP argue that this is part of rebuidling the w/c against the bosses?? of course not!!! FFS

.. tbh it is worrying that you can not see the differrence .. and to me this is why the left has shown itself incapable of dealing with this issue on the streets ..

it is only immigration immigration immigration on here mate .. i think it is a fundmental issue that the left have got very wrong .. these are debating threads .. we we work out what is right and wrong ..

p.s. war on terror?? its bullshit obviously .. like immigration control an attempt to attack and divide sections of the w/c .. there is a war for oil and they seek to demonise the opposition .. is it a priority though ?? No .. my simple answer? don't drive!!

transport?? .. much closer to my heart than immigration .. i cycle everywhere .. simple answer .. everybody in this country should be GIVEN a free bike or scooter .. ( p.s. i started a thread i think on doing a massive job swop so people do not have to commute .. mayeb it was just a post)

the environment ?? my main interest outside of class issue .. i put myself thru birbeck to do an environmental degree .. simple answers?? .. FREE solar panels for all houses .. micro generation ..

middle east .. depressing .. actually i am more sympathetic than most to israelis .. sure the state is essentially relegious facist ( read a lot of lennie brenner many years ago) but what the fuck else can they do!! i argue for a one state / or federal solution

p.s. will not reply on here to naything else aprt from marx now ..

Thanks durutti, but the facts speak for themselves: the vast majority of the threads that you start are about immigration. There is plenty of evidence to support my contention.

Your ideas on this subject are not only worrying, they're barking mad.

it is only immigration immigration immigration on here mate .. i think it is a fundmental issue that the left have got very wrong .. these are debating threads .. we we work out what is right and wrong ..

Only because you've used this forum as your own personal soapbox to rail against immigration. You moan about neo-liberalism but rather that find ways to strike blows against the capitalist system, you take aim at its victims.

 

[nino_savatte]

It would seem that there is someone who sees you as a "hero". But then, his word isn't worth toffee.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=97627489

 

[durruti02]

a thread on marx .. if i have wierd ideas on migration please use marx against what i am saying then ..

ps i took nothing out of context .. i already showed you that

 

[nino_savatte]

a thread on marx .. if i have wierd ideas on migration please use marx against what i am saying then ..

ps i took nothing out of context .. i already showed you that

It's all too easy to use Marx as some sort of refuge but I think, that even he, would be disgusted at how you co-opted his words to serve your cause.

 

[durruti02]

It's all too easy to use Marx as some sort of refuge but I think, that even he, would be disgusted at how you co-opted his words to serve your cause.

if it is soo easy to use marx do it then!! you cant though can you???!!

tell me show me prove to me how and why he would be disgusted .. otherwise your words are as always .. empty

 

[nino_savatte]

if it is soo easy to use marx do it then!! you cant though can you???!!

tell me show me prove to me how and why he would be disgusted .. otherwise your words are as always .. empty

I don't consume and regurgitate Marx and then conscript his words to serve a shabby cause.

 

[durruti02]

I don't consume and regurgitate Marx and then conscript his words to serve a shabby cause.

so what you doing on this thread??

p.s. methinks you CAN NOT find any marx to qoute and so come out with this bullshit

p.s. is it not amazing in a forum full of marxists that none can show categorically that marx supported open borders??

 

[nino_savatte]

so what you doing on this thread??

p.s. methinks you CAN NOT find any marx to qoute and so come out with this bullshit

p.s. is it not amazing in a forum full of marxists that none can show categorically that marx supported open borders??

I'm on this thread, not because I consume Marx's words and spit them out when it suits, but because I can't stand it when folk take Marx and use him to prop up their shabby arguments. Another thing i hate, is when Marx is quoted out of context to serve a particular ideological cause. The RCP were fond of that sort of thing.

It isn't about who can come up with the best Marx quote, as you suggest here. How facile, anyone can consume Marx but can you live Marx? I doubt it.

Don't consume Marx. Live him

 

[durruti02]

I'm on this thread, not because I consume Marx's words and spit them out when it suits, but because I can't stand it when folk take Marx and use him to prop up their shabby arguments. Another thing i hate, is when Marx is quoted out of context to serve a particular ideological cause. The RCP were fond of that sort of thing.

It isn't about who can come up with the best Marx quote, as you suggest here. How facile, anyone can consume Marx but can you live Marx? I doubt it.

i totally agree!! i hate it too .. it is bullshit .. but its what many on the left live for ..

did you REALLY not see any irony in this .. me who slags of the left for being dinosaurs , demanding they qoute marx on immigration!!!

( although i still think it is interesting to look and think and compare)

tbh i think you have totally misunderstood this thread ( TBH it has been pointed out to you on a number of occasiion the OP made NO claim re marx)

.. so then accept that, considering that in the OP i put BOTH sides of marx, that actually i myself do NOT ascribe any ONE point of view to marx ..

i suspect today judging on his comments about america he would agree with what i am saying though

 

[nino_savatte]

i totally agree!! i hate it too .. it is bullshit .. but its what many on the left live for ..

did you REALLY not see any irony in this .. me who slags of the left for being dinosaurs , demanding they qoute marx on immigration!!!

( although i still think it is interesting to look and think and compare)

tbh i think you have totally misunderstood this thread ( TBH it has been pointed out to you on a number of occasiion the OP made NO claim re marx)

.. so then accept that, considering that in the OP i put BOTH sides of marx, that actually i myself do NOT ascribe any ONE point of view to marx ..

i suspect today judging on his comments about america he would agree with what i am saying though

So what's the title of this thread? Remind me.

 

[durruti02]

So what's the title of this thread? Remind me.

er " Marx on immigration ... "

and the first line was


"is it possible to state what karl mark's view was on immigration .. if it it is what was it .. to start off see below .. "

ok?

 

[nino_savatte]

er " Marx on immigration ... "

and the first line was


"is it possible to state what karl mark's view was on immigration .. if it it is what was it .. to start off see below .. "

ok?

We've already been down this road and the view is getting repetitive.

 

[Lock&Light]

We've already been down this road and the view is getting repetitive.

I've just spent the last two days driving through the north-west counties of Scotland. Despite the fact that all would agree that there is hardly anything to see on such a journey other than mountains, no-one, surely whould suggest repetiveness, other than you, nino.

 

[nino_savatte]

You obviously chose to ignore Fridgemagnet's post on the Belgium thread. So once again, you pop up to make another snide comment.

Post reported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lock&Light
So, nino. What was the result of your latest bleatings to 'teacher'?

I see we're going to have to do this again, as there have been complaints from various different people and nothing polite has worked. If either of you (for the sake of even-handedness) replies to, mentions the other's username or refers to them or what they have posted in any way, you will be banned. For at least a week.

edit: which includes responding to someone's whinging about this, which I'm sure will come, though perhaps we will all be pleasantly surprised

 

[durruti02]

We've already been down this road and the view is getting repetitive.

que ???? you are mighty wierd sometimes nino

.. you ask a question ( implying something bad or naughty on my behalf)

.. i answer ( disproving said implication) ..

.. then you accuse me of repitition etc??!!

you are a class act ..

and still, as a marxist you have failed to, from marxist sources, come up with a clear line against the anti-'immigration for low wages' marx ..

 

[nino_savatte]

que ???? you are mighty wierd sometimes nino

.. you ask a question ( implying something bad or naughty on my behalf)

.. i answer ( disproving said implication) ..

.. then you accuse me of repitition etc??!!

you are a class act ..

and still, as a marxist you have failed to, from marxist sources, come up with a clear line against the anti-'immigration for low wages' marx ..

You're the only one here is who is being wierd, durutti. I've already proven that Marx wasn't commenting on immigration as an "evil" nor was he, as you suggested, saying that the Irish were stealing jobs from the English. He was discussing the problems associated with fomenting a revolution in this country and he saw Ireland as the place where this could happen. Indeed, there was a point in time when Ireland could have become a socialist republic, until Fianna Fail decided to hijack the revolution and declare itself "The True Republican Party".

You should read some Irish history, you'd learn a lot from it.

This is all some sort of game for you. It's tedious.