Marx on immigration ..

[butchersapron]

Let's get it out of the way attica/nino - you can corrupt torres to tory. Easy. Shall we move on and try to deal with some of the substantive points?

 

[butchersapron]

A picture can mean a thousand words, or a thousand lost votes.

And words can play their part too.

BNP men planned bombs for 'race war'

And they lost zero seats in the elections taking place at the same time as the trial. Are you even following this?

 

[audiotech]

And they lost zero seats in the elections taking place at the same time as the trial. Are you even following this?

Yes, I recall there was not much in the way of attention given to that trial from the media at the time.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah. Not much - apart from all that attention - esp in the north. Despite the fact that this proves my point.

 

[audiotech]

Yeah. Not much - apart from all that attention - esp in the north. Despite the fact that this proves my point.

I live in the north and their was little if any attention given to the trial, so point to your bollocks.

 

[butchersapron]

I live in the north and their was little if any attention given to the trial, so point bollocks.

Utter nonsense, apart of course from the link you so cleverly gave us there was daily reports in the burnley, manchester oldham etc papers - they were commented on (even on here i believe).

How nice of you to live in the north as well, i live in 'the south' - i'd hope anyone would laugh at me if i pretended to be able to and to actually carry out a full-spectrum coverage of the entire media output in the south though. Maybe it's different in 'the north'?

 

[audiotech]

Utter nonsense, apart of course from the link you so cleverly gave us there was daily reports in the burnley, manchester oldham etc papers - they were commented on (even on here i believe).

How nice of you to live in the north as well, i live in 'the south' - i'd hope anyone would laugh at me if i pretended to be able to and to actually carry out a full-spectrum coverage of the entire media output in the south though. Maybe it's different in 'the north'?

It is. Not full of arrogant southern gits who said the papers in the north gave the trial blanket coverage. When they didn't.

 

[butchersapron]

It is. Not full of arrogant southern gits who said the papers in the north gave the trial blanket coverage. When they didn't.

And in turn the north then is full of serial and persistent misreraders. BNP not won a seat in almost 4 years? Close media skills at work there i see.

 

[audiotech]

And in turn the north then is full of serial and persistent misreraders. BNP not won a seat in almost 4 years? Close media skills at work there i see.

It was off the top of my head, so glad you pointed out my error though.

 

[The Black Hand]

Let's get it out of the way attica/nino - you can corrupt torres to tory. Easy. Shall we move on and try to deal with some of the substantive points?

HAhahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahaha

You have ignored all the substantive points I have made!! You've lost it on this one, rather than independent thought you've gone and bought the IWCA line just like Paul (though his slavishness dates back far longer than yours). It would even be possible to put a date on when you decided to suck the IWCA limpcok 18 months ago is it? I thought anarchism was meant to be about having a mind of your own

 

[The Black Hand]

No he's not. You on the other hand are missing the obvious point that if they do not win by elections how on earth are they going to succeed? They are not.

The last election shows that the BNP have gone from marginal to irrelevant - if they are going to lose seats/not get anywhere when there is some sort of opposition to them, whenever they extend themselves - they cannot get anywhere!!

Class struggle my friend is a many many varied beast, and most of it is so very very far away from being obsessed with the BNP threat

Posted again cos this is important

 

[The Black Hand]

It is not - it is a mixed bag. You are hyping them up for whatever reason - sucking IWCA cok i fink

Good, perhaps even very good - BUT still no councillor - Rochford, Manchester

Middling - Havering, and Calderdale

Bad - Humiliation even; Torbay, Newcastle, North Lincolnshire.

Most of the results are in the BAD category!!

I have added up the %, and divided it by the number of seats (the information given by MC5) and the average % is 10.345!! That is a going nowhere %

You missed this too.

 

[The Black Hand]

Here's TWAFA on the particularly dismal showing and drop in the BNP vote from 6% to 3% in the recent council election in Newcastle. Don't forget, this old industrial area is meant to be the BNP growth area;

"May’s local elections this year saw the North East BNP’s vote decrease in most of their target seats. On Thursday 15th June the BNP suffered a further humiliation; BNP candidates Viv Browne and Graham Hodgson managed just 81 and 80 votes (3%) respectively in the Wingrove by-election in Newcastle... But their vote has collapsed even since last year, when they polled 157 (6%)."

This is very good news for anti fascists...

And this.

 

[nino_savatte]

And in turn the north then is full of serial and persistent misreraders. .

Pot-kettle-black, 'torres'....pot-kettle-black.

 

[nino_savatte]

no not point scoring nino .. looking at maybe where we have gone wrong .. its not like we are riding high is it??? do you think there is no need for in depth analysis? for looking back at marx or what ever? at listenning to what people on the street say??

you do not seem to do any of this but seem happy with things as they are! with the left irrelevent and miniscule and being eclipsed by the BNP

when would it be right nino to have a radical re think?

the question if the disarray of the left/@ is interesting .. i am happy to locate it in the xtian/leninist/bakuninist traditions of schism of cult of sect of being alone in being correct .. it is precisely this nonsense that needs to be got rid of .. until it is the left/@ will always be in disarray

You know, I have never heard you say "the way forward for the left is..." It's always "the failure of the left".

You do the job of the right for them. They don't need to do anything, you make it so easy.

 

[butchersapron]

Why on earth do you consistently associate criticism of 'the left' (whether constructive, useful or whatever) as doing the right's job or as helping the right or as automatically coming from the right. If anything is doing the right's job it's the refusal to loook facts and to look reality in the face. The left isn't perfect, it's shot through with flaws on all sorts of levels and it's almost enitirely without influence or power amongst the w/c and this needs to be discussed as does the sorry path that led to this situation - parroting that any criticism of the left helps the right is probably the least helpful way to overcome the current impasse - if anything it has historically proven counter-productive.

I fully expect the usual reply about smearing etc and the substantive issue to be ignored - fine, but if we can't get the basics of being able to discuss things on a forum set up for that very reason then how on earth do you think this approach will go down in the outside world? Don't ask questions - that's objectively rightist Have a look around and you'll have your answer.

 

[nino_savatte]

More petty nonsense, torres? Or should I call you "butchersparon"?

There is a great deal of negativity in durutti's 'analysis' of the left. Indeed, I have never heard him say anything positive with regards to the left. Perhaps this view is also shared by you.

It is precisely this kind of attitude that provides succour to the forces of the right. I don't expect someone as biased or as dim as you to understand this but I think history will support me on this one.

People like you spend far too much time discussing the failures of the past, not what we can do to counter the situations that we face here and now.

Over to you, butchersblock.

 

[nino_savatte]

I fully expect the usual reply about smearing etc and the substantive issue to be ignored

You resisted the temptation to smear me here, you're slipping.

 

[butchersapron]

More petty nonsense, torres? Or should I call you "butchersparon"?

There is a great deal of negativity in durutti's 'analysis' of the left. Indeed, I have never heard him say anything positive with regards to the left. Perhaps this view is also shared by you.

It is precisely this kind of attitude that provides succour to the forces of the right. I don't expect someone as biased or as dim as you to understand this but I think history will support me on this one.

People like you spend far too much time discussing the failures of the past, not what we can do to counter the situations that we face here and now.

Over to you, butchersblock.

You can call me whatever you like - if you want to call me butchersapron them fine. I'm not bothered. You avoid the actuall issue i raised choosing instead to limit it to Durruti's contributions instead of the wider point about your aggreessive reaction to criticisms of the left from any quarter at all. Dealing with the failings of the past is a pre-requisite for dealing with the realities of the current siutaations that we face - the two thinsg are nort seperate but are two moments of one single process - it's that simple.

You cannot simply accuse anyone attempting to engage in that process of thereby helping the right - that's madness, doomed madness at that, and artially why we're in the situation we find ourselves in today. The right is maore than happy fpor the left to continue on as it has been for the last 50s years - it makes their life a hell of a lot easier.

 

[nino_savatte]

You can call me whatever you like - if you want to call me butchersapron them fine. I'm not bothered. You avoid the actuall issue i raised choosing instead to limit it to Durruti's contributions instead of the wider point about your aggreessive reaction to criticisms of the left from any quarter at all. Dealing with the failings of the past is a pre-requisite for dealing with the realities of the current siutaations that we face - the two thinsg are nort seperate but are two moments of one single process - it's that simple.

You cannot simply accuse anyone attempting to engage in that process of thereby helping the right - that's madness, doomed madness at that, and artially why we're in the situation we find ourselves in today. The right is maore than happy fpor the left to continue on as it has been for the last 50s years - it makes their life a hell of a lot easier.

I could call you a great many other things but what's the point?

Youre trouble and that of durutti is that you're locked in the past I understand the need to acknowledge the mistakes made but no one seems to learn from them. More time and effort is spent going around in circles. I honestly don't think that either you or durutti have anything positive to say about left politics.

This is typical one-dimensional crap

You cannot simply accuse anyone attempting to engage in that process of thereby helping the right

Really? I think history will prove me right.It was because of the disarray of the left that Franco seized power in Spain...or perhaps, according to you, it would have been the fault of a specific group? You see, the lessons have not been learned and today, folk like you are far too content to engage in petty sectarian bickering. I guess without that sectarianism, you wouldn't have a raison d'être.

 

[butchersapron]

I could call you a great many other things but what's the point?

Youre trouble and that of durutti is that you're locked in the past I understand the need to acknowledge the mistakes made but no one seems to learn from them. More time and effort is spent going around in circles. I honestly don't think that either you or durutti have anything positive to say about left politics.

This is typical one-dimensional crap

Unbelievable. You acknowledge nothing of the sort and when attempts are made to identify those mistakes and the consequences of them you do the rabid dog act and attempt to disrupt any discussion (and not juust on historical issues) and accuse people of helping thr right. So help us square this circle nino - you agree that the past needs toi be discussed and examined in order to help clarify th current situation but when people try nd do just that you accuse them of helping the right. How thne should we proceed? Maybe a corps of specialists empowered to discuss the history of the left and draw appropriate conclusions for the rest of us?

Really? I think history will prove me right.It was because of the disarray of the left that Franco seized power in Spain...or perhaps, according to you, it would have been the fault of a specific group? You see, the lessons have not been learned and today, folk like you are far too content to engage in petty sectarian bickering. I guess without that sectarianism, you wouldn't have a raison d'être.

Ah, you can safely bring up the past i see -and even there you get it wrong, the popular front govt didn't lose the war because of squabbling between the left parties, what sort of top-down nonsense is that? It lost because of a combination of military (lack of resources, shoddy equipment, military mistakes etc) national/political (a pretned unity forced on the parties and the unwillingness to criticise the stalinists - the lack of political debate, not its existence) and international (stalin's and the great powers foreign pp0loicy designed to prevent a succesful european revolution lest it disrupt the balance of forces) factors. But to mention all this on a minor forum on a BB is helping the right.

 

[nino_savatte]

Unbelievable. You acknowledge nothing of the sort and when attempts are made to identify those mistakes and the consequences of them you do the rabid dog act and attempt to disrupt any discussion (and not juust on historical issues) and accuse people of helping thr right. So help us square this circle nino - you agree that the past needs toi be discussed and examined in order to help clarify th current situation but when people try nd do just that you accuse them of helping the right. How thne should we proceed? Maybe a corps of specialists empowered to discuss the history of the left and draw appropriate conclusions for the rest of us?





Ah, you can safely bring up the past i see -and even there you get it wrong, the popular front govt didn't lose the war because of squabbling between the left parties, what sort of top-down nonsense is that? It lost because of a combination of military (lack of resources, shoddy equipment, military mistakes etc) national/political (a pretned unity forced on the parties and the unwillingness to criticise the stalinists - the lack of political debate, not its existence) and international (stalin's and the great powers foreign pp0loicy designed to prevent a succesful european revolution lest it disrupt the balance of forces) factors. But to mention all this on a minor forum on a BB is helping the right.

FFS, you sound like a 3 year old who's just had his lollipop taken away from him.

Sorry but there was a great deal of tension between the Republicans that allowed Franco and his allies to capitalise. I guess you didn't want to read that, rather, you decided to read my post through the prism of your antipathy.

 

[butchersapron]

FFS, you sound like a 3 year old who's just had his lollipop taken away from him.

Sorry but there was a great deal of tension between the Republicans that allowed Franco and his allies to capitalise. I guess you didn't want to read that, rather, you decided to read my post through the prism of your antipathy.

Yes, and the lid was damagingly kept on political expression of that tension until it erupted in murder and the sidelining of radical elements and a false unity around 'winning the war' was imposed. Don't mention the differences - it only helps the right

Any chance of dealing with any of the points now? How do you propose to square the circle nino - you agree that the past needs to be discussed and examined in order to help clarify the current situation but when people try and do just that you accuse them of helping the right. How then should we proceed? A corps of specialists empowered to discuss the history of the left and draw appropriate conclusions for the rest of us?

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes, and the lid was damagingly kept on political expression of that tension until it erupted in murder and the sidelining of radical elements and a false unity around 'winning the war' was imposed. Don't mention the differences - it only helps the right

Any chance of dealing with any of the points now? How do you propose to square the circle nino - you agree that the past needs to be discussed and examined in order to help clarify the current situation but when people try and do just that you accuse them of helping the right. How then should we proceed? A corps of specialists empowered to discuss the history of the left and draw appropriate conclusions for the rest of us?

If any of us were to leave the running of things to you and your pals, the world would be in an even worse state than it is now. You and your mates seem content to perpetuate the tensions of the past by using this forum, not to discuss how to change things and how to mount real challenges, but for the purpose of attacking those who are not members of your own particular cult.

It's pathetic.

 

[butchersapron]

Right, i'll take that as another no then. Another refusal to enagage in actual debate, and discussion substituted with ranting abuse. Is it that you won't support your positions or that you can't?

 

[nino_savatte]

Right, i'll take that as another no then. Another refusal to enagage in actual debate, and discussion substituted with ranting abuse. Is it that you won't support your positions or that you can't?

You can "take it" how you want. Anything that I say will make no difference as you have this habit of deliberately misrepresenting my posts. You'll deny it but there is plenty of evidence that I can draw upon, should I need to.

You have the cheek to make out that you're a cut above the rest. You're not and as this post shows, once again, you cannot resist a smear.

 

[durruti02]

Why on earth do you consistently associate criticism of 'the left' (whether constructive, useful or whatever) as doing the right's job or as helping the right or as automatically coming from the right. If anything is doing the right's job it's the refusal to loook facts and to look reality in the face. The left isn't perfect, it's shot through with flaws on all sorts of levels and it's almost enitirely without influence or power amongst the w/c and this needs to be discussed as does the sorry path that led to this situation - parroting that any criticism of the left helps the right is probably the least helpful way to overcome the current impasse - if anything it has historically proven counter-productive.

I fully expect the usual reply about smearing etc and the substantive issue to be ignored - fine, but if we can't get the basics of being able to discuss things on a forum set up for that very reason then how on earth do you think this approach will go down in the outside world? Don't ask questions - that's objectively rightist Have a look around and you'll have your answer.

nino you are half right .. my criticism of the left IS overwhelmingly negative .. and equally of @ too tbh

i was brought up on a south walian xtian socialism of the thirties of the daily herald of the ILP of bevan of the chapels and communities from my dad .. a positive uniting movement a communal movement .. and a soft kind jewish/xtian socilaism from my mum ... sure i was too young to know all the politics for example that behind the NUWM was a sectarian CP following dictats from moscow

now i am (MUCH ) older i do not see this existing except for in random small groups .. and i do not see it reflected in todays left ... i see an almost absolute seperation between the w/c and the left compared to the 7ts when i first became politically active .. and i put this absolutely down to the lefts leninist phiosophy that divides it self fundamentally from the class

we are at year zero and ignoring the nonsense from attica and MC5 about the BNP ( the highest EVER facist votes in the UK and you think they are of no interest!!!) we need to fundamentally look at whether the leftists structure we have can work are relevent and whether there is something better we can do

i think that the left has offerred so many good things over the years in supportting w/c BUT that fundamentally its leninist model of being outside and over the class is outdated and needs to be replaced with a radical localist community union model .. whether it be IWCA or Sol Fed

and what i do see is day in day out good things small things as people help each other at work on the streeet as neighbours etc etc .. it is from this that revolution will come .. not from todays left

 

[The Black Hand]

If any of us were to leave the running of things to you and your pals, the world would be in an even worse state than it is now. You and your mates seem content to perpetuate the tensions of the past by using this forum, not to discuss how to change things and how to mount real challenges, but for the purpose of attacking those who are not members of your own particular cult.

It's pathetic.

I agree - this is exactly what Tory Toilet Torres has done with me. Gone is independent thought and investigation, and instead the stupid adoption of bankrupt RA/IWCA thought is his order of the day. And he's the cheek to say others are pathetic hahahahahahahahahahahaaha. Get real.

 

[audiotech]

we are at year zero and ignoring the nonsense from attica and MC5 about the BNP ( the highest EVER facist votes in the UK and you think they are of no interest!!!)

Year zero? Pol pot shite.

Nonsense? There's not hoards of fascists attempting to control the streets as there were in the 30's and nowhere near the 20,000 membership of the NF in the 70's.

The votes for them are high in some areas and low in others (on a very low turnout). As said a mixed bag and in stalled mode at present, with no gains at the last council elections and no council by-election win since 2004.

They are in financial trouble and there are stirrings amongst the ranks, with people pissed off with the leaderships autocratic style and alleged financial shenanigans.

With Blair gone and Brown now in place, many of those who voted BNP will now return to voting for the mainstream parties, or not at all.

 

[The Black Hand]

we are at year zero and ignoring the nonsense from attica and MC5 about the BNP ( the highest EVER facist votes in the UK and you think they are of no interest!!!)

Well we disagree don't we. Far from Nonsense mine/ours is a more realistic assesment. You are wetting your pants over nothing. In most countries of Europe people live with fascist groups with similar or worse levels of support, and have had to live with them for years/decade(s) and they don't panic or get so edgy as you appear to. THAT IS NOT CLASS STRUGGLE. FFS Fascists have been irrelevant since Maggie came to power, and they are only now doing something that has got them slightly bigger, and you are already crapping your pants. You have no sense of proportion. God knows what your hysterical writing would be like if they had 10 MEPs, 6 MPs, and 1000 councillors? And the battle then would still be just beginning, the movement has only just started to deal with the BNP and this is going to run for some time, so there's no point in hyping them up or believing their propaganda now.