Marx on immigration ..

[Knotted]

You're really starting to dilute the the use of the word here. My guess, is that you don't actually know what it means and you're just chucking it around because I've used it and used it contextually...which is something that you can only dream of.

I've never seen anybody lie and project as much as you do. Its pathological behaviour, nino. This stuff is not doing you any good.

You don't have to answer my question above if its too difficult. I have no wish to see you continue like this. For your own sake give it a rest. There are others with similar views to yourself who can put their points much better than you can. If you quit this 'debate' the world will keep turning. But if you must continue you will get another mauling. Simple.

 

[nino_savatte]

I've never seen anybody lie and project as much as you do. Its pathological behaviour, nino. This stuff is not doing you any good.

You don't have to answer my question above if its too difficult. I have no wish to see you continue like this. For your own sake give it a rest. There are others with similar views to yourself who can put their points much better than you can. If you quit this 'debate' the world will keep turning. But if you must continue you will get another mauling. Simple.

Your problem is that you don't know when to give up. You've had your arse kicked on this thread, have the good grace to admit it and move on.

 

[Knotted]

Your problem is that you don't know when to give up. You've had your arse kicked on this thread, have the good grace to admit it and move on.

Repeating back to me what I have said to you is obvious projection. Stop digging.

 

[nino_savatte]

Repeating back to me what I have said to you is obvious projection. Stop digging.

Flogging
A
Dead
Horse
Again

Can't
Quite
Admit
To
Himself
That
He's
Had
His
Arse
Kicked.

 

[nino_savatte]

I wonder if any of our anti-immigrationists would consider migrating if they couldn't get work here?

I doubt it, they'd just sit around bitching about immigrants all day.

 

[Knotted]

Flogging
A
Dead
Horse
Again

Can't
Quite
Admit
To
Himself
That
He's
Had
His
Arse
Kicked.

I'll take that as saying you can't/don't want to answer my question, address the debate, address the quote or participate in the thread, but that you would rather stick to the personal abuse. This is a good thing for all involved. I shall leave you with your last words:

 

[nino_savatte]

I expect the usual nonsense about the source of this article.

Marx's theory also helps us to grasp that under capitalism there will never be a happy time when workers can start to work less, relax and enjoy the fruits of the extraordinary technological progress that capitalism has produced. We will always face pressures to tighten our belts, raise productivity and look over our shoulders at the other workers with whom we are competing - whether it's here in Britain or anywhere else in the world where production can be carried out more cheaply.
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9895

Smash capitalism and sweep away the nation-states that support it. The current system is over-reliant on consumption, waste and death.

Scapegoating plays into the hands of the far right.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'll take that as saying you can't/don't want to answer my question, address the debate, address the quote or participate in the thread, but that you would rather stick to the personal abuse. This is a good thing for all involved. I shall leave you with your last words:

You're really rather full of yourself. You come here and try to set/limit the terms of discussion. If you can't do that you lie, cheat, misrepresent and project.

You've never once debated anything in an honest fashion.

For someone who reckons he's intelligent, you don't half make yourself look like a tit when you misquote or misrepresent my posts. That's dishonesty...shame you lack the ability to recognise this in yourself.

Thanks for derailing these threads. Thanks for not debating and thanks for being such a tool.

 

[Knotted]

I expect the usual nonsense about the source of this article.

What, that its written by "sectarians" who are "just as bad as Red Action". And of course "we all know about Red Action, don't we?" I wouldn't say such a thing. Would you?

But in any case don't try to continue the debate by changing the subject when you have yet to answer a pointed question. Either answer or give up or I will make you look like a fool on this new material as well.

 

[nino_savatte]

What, that its written by "sectarians" who are "just as bad as Red Action". And of course "we all know about Red Action, don't we?" I wouldn't say such a thing. Would you?

But in any case don't try to continue the debate by changing the subject when you have yet to answer a pointed question. Either answer or give up or I will make you look like a fool on this new material as well.

Stop fantasising. You've lost this 'debate' and you're trying to make yourself look like the hurt and innocent victim.

It doesn't work and the only folk who'll believe you are durutti, baldwin and torres.

 

[Knotted]

Stop fantasising. You've lost this 'debate' and you're trying to make yourself look like the hurt and innocent victim.

It doesn't work and the only folk who'll believe you are durutti, baldwin and torres.

Huh??

Nothing to say again. Then I shall leave you be.

 

[nino_savatte]

Huh??

Nothing to say again. Then I shall leave you be.

Do you know what a Know Nothing was? Nope, I guess you don't.

 

[Knotted]

Engels 1845:

With such a competitor the English working-man has to struggle, with a competitor upon the lowest plane possible in a civilised country, who for this very reason requires less wages than any other. Nothing else is therefore possible than that, as Carlyle says, the wages of English working-man should be forced down further and further in every branch in which the Irish compete with him.

Marx 1870:

But the English bourgeoisie has also much more important interests in the present economy of Ireland. Owing to the constantly increasing concentration of leaseholds, Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class.

Pretty clear continuity from Engels to Marx here, even if the talk of the more negative aspecs of the 'Irish character' are removed from the latter day Marx (and Engels for that matter).

 

[nino_savatte]

hey its the marx bump .. waiting on the so called marxists, nino and MC and VP to use marx' words to state categorically he was in favour of the bosses using and abusing immigrants as they do in todays society

we have one qoute so far .. can you go one better!!

I have never said that Marx was "was in favour of the bosses using and abusing immigrants as they do in todays society". Why do you have to lie?

What you have done is to select a bit of text and used it to justify your position. It serves your narrative and nothing else.

I suppose I'm going to have to explain what a "narrative" is in this particular context. I shouldn't have to, you produce them all the time as you have here with "Marx on immigration".

 

[nino_savatte]

Engels 1845:



Marx 1870:



Pretty clear continuity from Engels to Marx here, even if the talk of the more negative aspecs of the 'Irish character' are removed from the latter day Marx (and Engels for that matter).

Oh, look who's back. There is nothing here to support the anti-immigration position. Go back and read it again.

 

[nino_savatte]

Are you a Know Nothing, Knotted?

 

[Knotted]

Oh, look who's back. There is nothing here to support the anti-immigration position. Go back and read it again.

Which bit don't you understand? And furthermore why do assume that I agree with Marx and Engels 100% when I have said that I don't? Are you lazy, stupid or dishonest? Which is it?

Another quote from Engels:

Such occupations are therefore especially overcrowded with Irishmen: hand-weavers, bricklayers, porters, jobbers, and such workers, count hordes of Irishmen among their number, and the pressure of this race has done much to depress wages and lower the working-class.

Pretty clear isn't it?

 

[nino_savatte]

Which bit don't you understand? And furthermore why do assume that I agree with Marx and Engels 100% when I have said that I don't? Are you lazy, stupid or dishonest? Which is it?

Another quote from Engels:



Pretty clear isn't it?

Ah, more nonsense. What is it with you? You come here and you have the cheek to call me a "cretin" among other things when it is clear that you neither read texts properly nor do you have the ability to comprehend that which you have read. But what is more interesting is the way you call me "dishonest" when you have shown much dishonesty yourself. You're projecting.

Go away and come back when you've grown up.

 

[nino_savatte]

When was the Irish Republic created, Knotted?

If you have trouble reading, then you'll have trouble with this question.

 

[Knotted]

When was the Irish Republic created, Knotted?

If you have trouble reading, then you'll have trouble with this question.

I'll answer questions which are on topic.

 

[Knotted]

Ah, more nonsense. What is it with you? You come here and you have the cheek to call me a "cretin" among other things when it is clear that you neither read texts properly nor do you have the ability to comprehend that which you have read. But what is more interesting is the way you call me "dishonest" when you have shown much dishonesty yourself. You're projecting.

Go away and come back when you've grown up.

Off topic again, nino.

Either slink away while you still have some dignity left, or deal with the topic. You're either going to stay on topic or you're not. Stop teasing.

 

[nino_savatte]

Off topic again, nino.

Either slink away while you still have some dignity left, or deal with the topic. You're either going to stay on topic or you're not. Stop teasing.

LOL!!! You've spent much of this threading sniping at me....you've got some real brass neck, pal.

 

[nino_savatte]

Engels 1845:



Marx 1870:



Pretty clear continuity from Engels to Marx here, even if the talk of the more negative aspecs of the 'Irish character' are removed from the latter day Marx (and Engels for that matter).

Source please? I'd like to know the context from which this has been taken...or are you above that sort of thing?

This still doesn't validate or justify the anti-immigration argument nor does it go any way to supporting the notion that immigrants "take priority" over others in terms of social housing provision.

Back of the class with you!

 

[nino_savatte]

I'll answer questions which are on topic.

LOL!!! You don't answer questions full stop.

As for being "on topic", shall we have a look and see how many of your posts are "on topic"?

 

[Knotted]

Source please? I'd like to know the context from which this has been taken...or are you above that sort of thing?

This still doesn't validate or justify the anti-immigration argument nor does it go any way to supporting the notion that immigrants "take priority" over others in terms of social housing provision.

Back of the class with you!

The Marx quote is the same one that's been quoted throughout the thread. Try to keep up.

The Engels quote is from the same source as the previous one. Something you would know if you had read it.

 

[Knotted]

Marx and Engels on immigration. Some sources:

"Irish immigration" from Condition of the Working-Class in England (Engels)

Letter to Meyer and Vogt (Marx 1870)

Some new ones:

The Commercial Crisis in England (Engels 1847)

It looks as though the Irish will not die of hunger as calmly next winter as they did last winter. Irish immigration to England is getting more alarming each day. It is estimated that an average of 50,000 Irish arrive each year; the number so far this year is already over 220,000. In September, 345 were arriving daily and in October this figure increased to 511. This means that the competition between the workers will become stronger, and it would not be at all surprising if the present crisis caused such an uproar that it compelled the government to grant reforms of a most important nature.

Letter to Engels (Marx 1869)

The brute believes in the future ‘state of democracy'! Secretly that means sometimes constitutional England, sometimes the bourgeois United States, sometimes wretched Switzerland. ‘It’ has no conception of revolutionary politics. Copying Schwabenmayer, he quotes as proof of democratic activity: the railway to California was built by the bourgeoisie awarding itself through Congress an enormous mass of ‘public land’, that is to say, expropriating it from the workers; by importing Chinese rabble to depress wages; and finally by instituting a new off-shoot, the ‘financial aristocracy’.

Letter to Sorge (Engels 1893)

On the difficulty of establishing an American workers' party:

First, the Constitution, based as in England upon party government, which causes every vote for any candidate not put up by one of the two governing parties to appear to be lost. And the American, like the Englishman, wants to influence his state; he does not throw his vote away.

Then, and more especially, immigration, which divides the workers into two groups: the native-born and the foreigners, and the latter in turn into (1) the Irish, (2) the Germans, (3) the many small groups, each of which understands only itself: Czechs, Poles, Italians, Scandinavians, etc. And then the Negroes. To form a single party out of these requires quite unusually powerful incentives. Often there is a sudden violent elan, but the bourgeois need only wait passively, and the dissimilar elements of the working class fall apart again.

 

[nino_savatte]

You're still thrashing about, Knotted. There is still no mention of controls, at least not the sort that you and your mates appear to be arguing. You can try and justify this all you like. The narrative on display here is this: "Even Marx thinks durutti and I are correct". It's shabby.

Your 'debating skills' are becoming more laughable by the day.

 

[Knotted]

You're still thrashing about, Knotted. There is still no mention of controls, at least not the sort that you and your mates appear to be arguing. You can try and justify this all you like. The narrative on display here is this: "Even Marx thinks durutti and I are correct". It's shabby.

Your 'debating skills' are becoming more laughable by the day.

What on earth are you wittering on about again? Who has mentioned immigration controls? Where?

All you have done is complain about language. This sounds like the BNP, that sounds right wing. Usual PC bullshit. The plain language of Marx and Engels is pretty refreshing compared to modern spin and PR. The type of crap language you try to enforce on here.

 

[durruti02]

You cannot hide the fact that you have taken a wee bit of text out of context to support your ideas. The problem is this: Marx would not support your position on immigration because it runs counter to all that he has written on the subjects of capitalism and labour.

so go on then .. find us the qoutes .. you are constantly harping on that i and knotted etc do not back up what we say .. yet in this threads i and then knotted have qouted chunk after chunk at you and you have come back with only one qoute .. these boards are wasted on you ...

 

[Knotted]

The point I would like to stress is that Marx and Engels were willing to discuss problems associated with immigration. The more advanced political culture of the time meant that there was no talk about what was being insinuated, or what 'they really meant' etc. They meant what they said and it was understood that they meant it.

The language Engels used in the Condition of the Working-Class in England has been far harsher than anything on these boards - and that's even including the fash entrists.

But putting our 21st century obsession with style aside, the content of what Marx and Engels said was pretty clear - perhaps especially because they did not indulge worries about 'causing offence' etc. They had rounded views that were not just simple positives and negatives but while taking that into account they said things that many modern leftists blanche at saying. Firstly immigration can depress wages. Secondly that it can cause conflict within the working class. Thirdly they were willing to support Irish independence partly (but mainly) on the grounds that it would curtail Irish immigration.