Marx on immigration ..

[durruti02]

What contradiction? Marx highlighted the expoitative feature of capitalism, but also understood it's progressive internationalist flavour. So, if it came to a choice of reaction, or progress Marx would chose the latter. He chose the idea of internationalism over crude, xenophobic, nationalism.

You appear to have learnt nothing because you keep repeating the same mantra about controls on workers and keep posting things which you bizarrely believe give support to it.

so show me where marx has said what you claim? ( p.s. i do not neccesaryly disagree with you .. i just want people to actually try to debate properly on here )

 

[durruti02]

socialist review article

http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9895

"Marx concluded his discussion of the reserve army of labour by arguing that trade unions - not immigration controls - are the means by which workers can fight the adverse consequences of labour market competition. Workers, he said, should "organise a regular co-operation between employed and unemployed in order to destroy or weaken the ruinous effects of this natural law of capitalistic production on their class". " and so say all of us

what though is wrong about this article is that it fails to think about or see why the unemployed no longer ACT as a reserve army .. this is the missing link in their arguement .. when the local unemployed no longer want to take these jobs they no longer act as a reserve army

and the last 2 paras make no sense ..

 

[durruti02]

bump for mc and anyone else .. i'm waiting for you to qoute marx back at me and

 

[durruti02]

hey its the marx bump .. waiting on the so called marxists, nino and MC and VP to use marx' words to state categorically he was in favour of the bosses using and abusing immigrants as they do in todays society

we have one qoute so far .. can you go one better!!

 

[audiotech]

hey its the marx bump .. waiting on the so called marxists, nino and MC and VP to use marx' words to state categorically he was in favour of the bosses using and abusing immigrants as they do in todays society

Bosses exploit quite a number of people, not neccessarily immigrants, everyday. Marx was clearly not in favour of anyone being, as you term, 'used and abused'.

You'll have a few Marge quotes to hand in that notepad of yours too I expect?

 

[nino_savatte]

You'll have a few Marge quotes to hand in that notepad of yours too I expect?

Of course, he's also told me that he "admired" (or words to that effect) the RCP.

 

[audiotech]

Of course, he's also told me that he "admired" (or words to that effect) the RCP.

This is part of an interesting piece:

...commentators who, in large measure, tempt white people to vent their collective spleen against immigrants.

Hodge is the latest in a long line to encourage this tendency. With one sweep of the pen, she suggests that only white families in her constituency, and others nearby, "have lived in the area for three generations". She is wrong. Over three generations, black people have settled in the East End of London, in Tiger Bay in Cardiff, and in Bristol and Liverpool, too. As long as we have been here we have been the target of white racism, pointing fingers of blame at us for the misfortunes to which others are prey.
http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/

 

[durruti02]

Bosses exploit quite a number of people, not neccessarily immigrants, everyday. Marx was clearly not in favour of anyone being, as you term, 'used and abused'.

You'll have a few Marge quotes to hand in that notepad of yours too I expect?

yes we know this dear . we were as marxists do , trying to learn something what marx said and did .. i will be amazed if you are able to actually engage with this kind of activity

and yet anoher pathetic dig ..

 

[durruti02]

Of course, he's also told me that he "admired" (or words to that effect) the RCP.

hey surely not nino!!!! NOT referring to the OP or thread???? .. surely not being disruptive are we??

whta do you think marx thought .. references and qoutes please .. can you do that?

 

[durruti02]

This is part of an interesting piece:

yes it is interesting .. and spot on ..hodge is a nasty bit of work .. doubt whether she is racist ( more classist is suspect!) .. but blog is nieve if it misunderstands her motives "am unable to offer any answer to the question as to why Hodge made an anti-immigrant outburst" .. selfishness and opportunism .. simple as .. and possibly worse if under orders from Millbank

however MC what is its relevance on this thread??? .. surely you are not trying to prove guilt by association!!!! that wouldn't be like you!

p.s. you still, as a so called marxist, have failed absolutely to engage in this debate .. i guess shows how pathetic is current left in this country

same goes for all the lefties on here .. incapable of debating marx .. incredble ..

 

[nino_savatte]

hey surely not nino!!!! NOT referring to the OP or thread???? .. surely not being disruptive are we??

whta do you think marx thought .. references and qoutes please .. can you do that?

Shall I go and find the post? You're elusive, a fantasist an a liar.

You claimed to have admired the RCP, even going so far as to tell me that you liked their "poster campaign". You also had high words of praise for WAR.

 

[audiotech]

yes it is interesting .. and spot on ..hodge is a nasty bit of work .. doubt whether she is racist ( more classist is suspect!) .. but blog is nieve if it misunderstands her motives "am unable to offer any answer to the question as to why Hodge made an anti-immigrant outburst" .. selfishness and opportunism .. simple as .. and possibly worse if under orders from Millbank

however MC what is its relevance on this thread??? .. surely you are not trying to prove guilt by association!!!! that wouldn't be like you!

p.s. you still, as a so called marxist, have failed absolutely to engage in this debate .. i guess shows how pathetic is current left in this country

same goes for all the lefties on here .. incapable of debating marx .. incredble ..

It's a thread with a word immigration in the title. It also has the name Marx next to it.

Important to point out to anyone who claims to be a Marxist, to avoid appealing to the lowest common denominator, or otherwise you end up in the same camp as Islington's (now Dagenham's) very own Enver Hoxha.

Worth pointing out that Marx himself stated that he was no Marxist. Which says a lot about Marx and, after reading your latest outburst, a lot about you.

 

[durruti02]

It's a thread with a word immigration in the title. It also has the name Marx next to it.

Important to point out to anyone who claims to be a Marxist, to avoid appealing to the lowest common denominator, or otherwise you end up in the same camp as Islington's (now Dagenham's) very own Enver Hoxha.

MC5 .. you are or claim to be a socialist? yes?? i am not sure whether you claim to be a marxist but you are surely aware the roots of socialism go back to marx .. so i thought i would have a look to see what marx did say .. not that i will change what i say or do but out of genuine interest ... we are in a situation where the left is in retreat and the far right advancing .. it seesm to be obvious to lok any where and everywhere for answers

you show yourself up by being incapable of being part of this enquiring process .. i knew you couldn't come back with any marx/ist thoughts ..

p.s. wtf does this nonsense mean! "It's a thread with a word immigration in the title. It also has the name Marx next to it. " .. you suggesting marx didn't think about immigration?? i have shown this is clearly NOT the case p.s. the rest of your post is again subjective supposition nonsense .. you are only capable of meaningless sound bites .. try for once to engage ..

 

[audiotech]

MC5 .. you are or claim to be a socialist? yes?? i am not sure whether you claim to be a marxist but you are surely aware the roots of socialism go back to marx .. so i thought i would have a look to see what marx did say .. not that i will change what i say or do but out of genuine interest ... we are in a situation where the left is in retreat and the far right advancing .. it seesm to be obvious to lok any where and everywhere for answers

you show yourself up by being incapable of being part of this enquiring process .. i knew you couldn't come back with any marx/ist thoughts ..

Worth pointing out that Marx himself stated that he was no Marxist. Which says a lot about Marx and, after reading your latest outburst, a lot about you.

 

[durruti02]

Worth pointing out that Marx himself stated that he was no Marxist. Which says a lot about Marx and, after reading your latest outburst, a lot about you.

another meaningless empty comment ..

 

[audiotech]

another meaningless empty comment ..

Not really. You mentioned Marx's name four times in that brief post, as though it was a bluepeter badge, or summat.

 

[nino_savatte]

This is part of an interesting piece:

Aye, "Damn those immigrants. They come here take our jobs, take advantage of our 'generous benefits system and fuck our women".

 

[nino_savatte]

MC5 .. you are or claim to be a socialist? yes?? i am not sure whether you claim to be a marxist but you are surely aware the roots of socialism go back to marx .. so i thought i would have a look to see what marx did say .. not that i will change what i say or do but out of genuine interest ... we are in a situation where the left is in retreat and the far right advancing .. it seesm to be obvious to lok any where and everywhere for answers

you show yourself up by being incapable of being part of this enquiring process .. i knew you couldn't come back with any marx/ist thoughts ..

p.s. wtf does this nonsense mean! "It's a thread with a word immigration in the title. It also has the name Marx next to it. " .. you suggesting marx didn't think about immigration?? i have shown this is clearly NOT the case p.s. the rest of your post is again subjective supposition nonsense .. you are only capable of meaningless sound bites .. try for once to engage ..

You cannot hide the fact that you have taken a wee bit of text out of context to support your ideas. The problem is this: Marx would not support your position on immigration because it runs counter to all that he has written on the subjects of capitalism and labour.

Oh and Ireland was part of the British Empire and the Irish were used to do the jobs that no Englishman would touch.

 

[Knotted]

You cannot hide the fact that you have taken a wee bit of text out of context to support your ideas. The problem is this: Marx would not support your position on immigration because it runs counter to all that he has written on the subjects of capitalism and labour.

Oh and Ireland was part of the British Empire and the Irish were used to do the jobs that no Englishman would touch.

Lazy cretin. Durrutti has never claimed 'Marx supports his position on immigration'. We'll just add that to your collection of lazy lies.

In any case what do you think of what Engels has to say here:

If we except his exaggerated and one-sided condemnation of the Irish national character, Carlyle is perfectly right. These Irishmen who migrate for fourpence to England, on the deck of a steamship on which they are often packed like cattle, insinuate themselves everywhere. The worst dwellings are good enough for them; their clothing causes them little trouble, so long as it holds together by a single thread; shoes they know not; their food consists of potatoes and potatoes only; whatever they earn beyond these needs they spend upon drink. What does such a race want with high wages? The worst quarters of all the large towns are inhabited by Irishmen. Whenever a district is distinguished for especial filth and especial ruinousness, the explorer may safely count upon meeting chiefly those Celtic faces which one recognises at the first glance as different from the Saxon physiognomy of the native, and the singing, aspirate brogue which the true Irishman never loses. I have occasionally heard the Irish-Celtic language spoken in the most thickly populated parts of Manchester. The majority of the families who live in cellars are almost everywhere of Irish origin. In short, the Irish have, as Dr. Kay says, discovered the minimum of the necessities of life, and are now making the English workers acquainted with it. Filth and drunkenness, too, they have brought with them. The lack of cleanliness, which is not so injurious in the country, where population is scattered, and which is the Irishman's second nature, becomes terrifying and gravely dangerous through its concentration here in the great cities. The Milesian deposits all garbage and filth before his house door here, as he was accustomed to do at home, and so accumulates the pools and dirt-heaps which disfigure the working- people's quarters and poison the air. He builds a pig-sty against the house wall as he did at home, and if he is prevented from doing this, he lets the pig sleep in the room with himself. This new and unnatural method of cattle-raising in cities is wholly of Irish origin. The Irishman loves his pig as the Arab his horse, with the difference that he sells it when it is fat enough to kill. Otherwise, he eats and sleeps with it, his children play with it, ride upon it, roll in the dirt with it, as any one may see a thousand times repeated in all the great towns of England. The filth and comfortlessness that prevail in the houses themselves it is impossible to describe. The Irishman is unaccustomed to the presence of furniture; a heap of straw, a few rags, utterly beyond use as clothing, suffice for his nightly couch. A piece of wood, a broken chair, an old chest for a table, more he needs not; a tea-kettle, a few pots and dishes, equip his kitchen, which is also his sleeping and living room. When he is in want of fuel, everything combustible within his reach, chairs, door-posts, mouldings, flooring, finds its way up the chimney. Moreover, why should he need much room? At home in his mud-cabin there was only one room for all domestic purposes; more than one room his family does not need in England. So the custom of crowding many persons into a single room, now so universal, has been chiefly implanted by the Irish immigration. And since the poor devil must have one enjoyment, and society has shut him out of all others, he betakes himself to the drinking of spirits. Drink is the only thing which makes the Irishman's life worth having, drink and his cheery care-free temperament; so he revels in drink to the point of the most bestial drunkenness. The southern facile character of the Irishman, his crudity, which places him but little above the savage, his contempt for all humane enjoyments, in which his very crudeness makes him incapable of sharing, his filth and poverty, all favour drunkenness. The temptation is great, he cannot resist it, and so when he has money he gets rid of it down his throat. What else should he do? How can society blame him when it places him in a position in which he almost of necessity becomes a drunkard; when it leaves him to himself, to his savagery?

The Condition of the Working-Class in England

Marx and Engels might have been many things but they weren't politically correct numpties.

 

[nino_savatte]

Lazy cretin. Durrutti has never claimed 'Marx supports his position on immigration'. We'll just add that to your collection of lazy lies.

In any case what do you think of what Engels has to say here:



The Condition of the Working-Class in England

Marx and Engels might have been many things but they weren't politically correct numpties.

Who are you calling a "lazy cretin"? That's rich coming from a proven liar and cheap shot artist.

The trouble with you lot is that you get defensive about your mad ideas on immigration. So desperate are you to 'win' the 'argument' that you will just chuck out any bit of text so long as you think i supports your pov. Well, I don't know if you were ever a student but most lecturers would look dimly on your ability to use qoutes.

Oh and there is nothing in that bit of text that supports your positions on immigration. Try reading and comprehending, you'll find that it helps.

 

[Knotted]

Oh and there is nothing in that bit of text that supports your positions on immigration. Try reading and comprehending, you'll find that it helps.

Yes you are right there. I don't agree with Engels on this. I think his writing was prejudiced and at this point he was still influenced by Carlyle who (later?) went on to form actual racial theories.

What I do admire, though, is Engels clear headed persuit of the truth with no regard to 'what he sounds like.'

ETA: By the way its obvious to all that you have not read the text. There is no way that you would respond this way if you had. This is another typical lying projection of yours.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes you are right there. I don't agree with Engels on this. I think his writing was prejudiced and at this point he was still influenced by Carlyle who (later?) went on to form actual racial theories.

What I do admire, though, is Engels clear headed persuit of the truth with no regard to 'what he sounds like.'

In an attempt to prove a point and big yourself up, you produced this post...pity, it does bugger all for your credibility.

 

[Knotted]

In an attempt to prove a point and big yourself up, you produced this post...pity, it does bugger all for your credibility.

What has my credibility got to do with anything? I'm making a point about what Engels thought. I'm not saying anything about myself.

YET ANOTHER PROJECTION, NINO!!!

You have described exactly your motivation for your posts. For pity's sake get a life.

 

[Knotted]

Who are you calling a "lazy cretin"? That's rich coming from a proven liar and cheap shot artist.

Does it matter if it is rich or not? Its plainly true. The only person you are kidding is yourself.

 

[nino_savatte]

Does it matter if it is rich or not? Its plainly true. The only person you are kidding is yourself.

No, it has no basis in fact. Whereas when I call you a liar, there is plentiful evidence.

You're the cretin, you cannot debate without trying to cheat your way through.
It also shows a lack of maturity on your part that, in order to 'win', you must lie, dissemble and misrepresent.

 

[nino_savatte]

What has my credibility got to do with anything? I'm making a point about what Engels thought. I'm not saying anything about myself.

YET ANOTHER PROJECTION, NINO!!!

You have described exactly your motivation for your posts. For pity's sake get a life.

You're talking out of your arse again. This is your way of trying to disguise your lack of reading on this or any other related subject.

It's shabby.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes you are right there. I don't agree with Engels on this. I think his writing was prejudiced and at this point he was still influenced by Carlyle who (later?) went on to form actual racial theories.

What I do admire, though, is Engels clear headed persuit of the truth with no regard to 'what he sounds like.'

ETA: By the way its obvious to all that you have not read the text. There is no way that you would respond this way if you had. This is another typical lying projection of yours.

You're like durutti in this sense: you're a fantasist but you're an arrogant fantasist who insists that he 'win' the argument' by lying.

 

[Knotted]

You're talking out of your arse again. This is your way of trying to disguise your lack of reading on this or any other related subject.

It's shabby.

Stop stalling. What do you think of the piece I quoted? Are you telling me you agree with it and that I haven't understood it? Do you dare say that? Think carefully this time.

 

[Knotted]

You're like durutti in this sense: you're a fantasist but you're an arrogant fantasist who insists that he 'win' the argument' by lying.

Projection in its purity.

 

[nino_savatte]

Projection in its purity.

You're really starting to dilute the the use of the word here. My guess, is that you don't actually know what it means and you're just chucking it around because I've used it and used it contextually...which is something that you can only dream of.