Marx on immigration ..

[durruti02]

Again, you have not only misread and misunderstood the letter, you have misrepresented its contents.

This remark is rather revealing



When you say "the left", you mean those people who actaully oppose your crazy right wing ideas on immigration.

so dear HOW have i misrepresented it?

 

[nino_savatte]

so dear HOW have i misrepresented it?

Must I repeat myself? I've posted my reason, it is up to you to read the post. After all, you're the one who always insists that I, and others, read your posts. How about doing me the courtesy of reading mine?

 

[audiotech]

of course as always is .. what do we do about it all!"[/B]

You could take a leaf out of Marx's book, rather than the reactionary bollocks you spout for a start.

Quote back at ya.

But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favour of free trade. Karl Marx, On the Question of Free Trade (1848)

 

[disownedspirit]

ouch

 

[durruti02]

You could take a leaf out of Marx's book, rather than the reactionary bollocks you spout for a start.

Quote back at ya.

which dear .. i did .. in the OP!! ok???

which again to remind you and nino did not argue marx held either position but was a debate opener .. so er ouch back at yer too

how do you explain both his positions?

"It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point" 1848

"..Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class..." 1870 letter

hey and you know what?? .. the latter is the later isn't it? maybe he changed his position!

 

[audiotech]

which dear .. i did .. in the OP!! ok???

which again to remind you and nino did not argue marx held either position but was a debate opener .. so er ouch back at yer too

how do you explain both his positions?

"It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point" 1848

"..Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class..." 1870 letter

hey and you know what?? .. the latter is the later isn't it? maybe he changed his position!

Look at it this way, Irish workers combined with English workers and both benefited in the long run. Some of their ancestors went on to form RA and later the IWCA.

 

[nino_savatte]

Look at it this way, Irish workers combined with English workers and both benefited in the long run. Some of their ancestors went on to form RA and later the IWCA.

This is something that durutti fails to understand...or refuses to acknowledge. Either way, his use of the quotation is wanting.

 

[nino_savatte]

which dear .. i did .. in the OP!! ok???

which again to remind you and nino did not argue marx held either position but was a debate opener .. so er ouch back at yer too

how do you explain both his positions?

"It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point" 1848

"..Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class..." 1870 letter

hey and you know what?? .. the latter is the later isn't it? maybe he changed his position!

You want to have your cake and eat it too. Do you know what was happening in Ireland when that letter was written? Because I don't think that you do.

 

[Knotted]

Here's another example of working class internationalism, this time from Eleanor Marx-Aveling and William Thorne.

Letter to Samuel Gompers

At this meeting the feeling was very strong that the time had come to bring about a close and organised relation between the labour parties of the different countries. The most immediate question is that of preventing the introduction from one country to another of unfair labour, i.e., of workers who not knowing the conditions of the labour-struggle in a particular country, are imported into that country by the Capitalists, in order to reduce wages, or lengthen the hours of labour, or both. The most practical way of carrying this out appears to be the appointing in each country of an International Secretary, who shall be in communication with all the other International Secretaries. Thus, the moment any difficulty between capitalists and labourers occurs in any country, the International Labour Secretaries of all the other countries should be at once communicated with, and will make it their business to try to prevent the exportation from their particular country of any labourers to take the place on unfair terms of those locked-out or on strike in the country where the difficulty has occurred.

It should be remembered that Gompers was genuinely nationalistic and anti-immigrant, seeking controls on immigration and Chinese immigration in particular. Did Eleanor Marx and William Thorne respond with moralistic platitudes? Did they lecture on the 'myths of immigration'? No, they acknowledged the problem and fought for genuine internationalism.

 

[durruti02]

Look at it this way, Irish workers combined with English workers and both benefited in the long run. Some of their ancestors went on to form RA and later the IWCA.

absolutely .. ( and a few girlfriends of mine too! ) .. i have as you well know no problem with this side of immigration .. the debate though was on where marx stood on the issue .. and i guess whether then that has any relevance for today


as an aside though, did we NEED this to be where we are today? and would it not have been better if we had mixed not due to famine and capitalism but genuine exchange etc ??

 

[durruti02]

This is something that durutti fails to understand...or refuses to acknowledge. Either way, his use of the quotation is wanting.

again absolutely ridiculous and wrong .. you are worthless mate absolutely worthless in your allegations ..

 

[durruti02]

Here's another example of working class internationalism, this time from Eleanor Marx-Aveling and William Thorne.

Letter to Samuel Gompers



It should be remembered that Gompers was genuinely nationalistic and anti-immigrant, seeking controls on immigration and Chinese immigration in particular. Did Eleanor Marx and William Thorne respond with moralistic platitudes? Did they lecture on the 'myths of immigration'? No, they acknowledged the problem and fought for genuine internationalism.

i await a response to this knotted!!

incidently the only qoute from marx that people have given so far is the early one in favour of freetrade and free movement .. can they really not find any others???

 

[durruti02]

You want to have your cake and eat it too. Do you know what was happening in Ireland when that letter was written? Because I don't think that you do.

go on tell me .. i'm fick me!!

if you had any brains and as this is a thread on marx and migration you would have mentionned this much much earlier in the thread .. there is NO question that Marx underestimates the effect of imperialism on the Irish (indeed his and Engels casual racism is unpleasant) .. and how this was a 'push' factor in the migration ..

p.s. you still have not responde to my question

how do you explain both his positions?

"It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point" 1848

"..Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class..." 1870 letter

 

[audiotech]

as an aside though, did we NEED this to be where we are today? and would it not have been better if we had mixed not due to famine and capitalism but genuine exchange etc ??

Sadly, we don't make history of our own choosing, as carlos once put it.

 

[Knotted]

i await a response to this knotted!!

incidently the only qoute from marx that people have given so far is the early one in favour of freetrade and free movement .. can they really not find any others???

As I said the first time round, the quotation on free trade is not so absolute as it appears. The previous paragraph in Marx's speach says protectionism is progressive at a different stage of development (iirc).

 

[nino_savatte]

go on tell me .. i'm fick me!!

if you had any brains and as this is a thread on marx and migration you would have mentionned this much much earlier in the thread .. there is NO question that Marx underestimates the effect of imperialism on the Irish (indeed his and Engels casual racism is unpleasant) .. and how this was a 'push' factor in the migration ..

p.s. you still have not responde to my question

how do you explain both his positions?

"It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point" 1848

"..Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class..." 1870 letter

You're a real thick fucker, aren't you, durutti? Why do you get so defensive about your precious anti-immigration stance? Because you don't want discussion on this issue. as far as you are concerned, yours is the correct position.

I've said that immigration controls are racist and not once, have you or your fellow travellers actually challenged that statement. Instead, you call me an "idiot" and spend all your time lying, doling out insults and posting up letters that you misrepresent and misquote.

There is only one person here who is an "idiot". it would also seem that your brain was taken out at birth and replaced with a tape loop.

p.s. you still have not responde to my question

Funny that, you insist that I respond to your "questions" but you never reciprocate. You're a complete and total waste of time and space.

 

[nino_savatte]

again absolutely ridiculous and wrong .. you are worthless mate absolutely worthless in your allegations ..

How is it "wrong"? You don't know how to read and to comprehend...and you've shown that by your misrepresentation of that letter.

 

[durruti02]

Sadly, we don't make history of our own choosing, as carlos once put it.

yes mc of course we do not .. and i celebrate the diversity capitalism has created .. but we are anti capitalists aren't we?? so surely we have a critique of this process too?

 

[durruti02]

You're a real thick fucker, aren't you, durutti? Why do you get so defensive about your precious anti-immigration stance? Because you don't want discussion on this issue. as far as you are concerned, yours is the correct position.

I've said that immigration controls are racist and not once, have you or your fellow travellers actually challenged that statement. Instead, you call me an "idiot" and spend all your time lying, doling out insults and posting up letters that you misrepresent and misquote.

There is only one person here who is an "idiot". it would also seem that your brain was taken out at birth and replaced with a tape loop.

Funny that, you insist that I respond to your "questions" but you never reciprocate. You're a complete and total waste of time and space.

this is a thread about marx and immigration .. please deal with that as others do ..

why not try to debate both these positions?

"It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point" 1848

"..Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class..." 1870 letter


p.s. u accused me of misrepresenting marx .. how?


p.s. i do not support immigration controls ..

 

[audiotech]

yes mc of course we do not .. and i celebrate the diversity capitalism has created .. but we are anti capitalists aren't we?? so surely we have a critique of this process too?

Yes, but not one that divides.

 

[nino_savatte]

again absolutely ridiculous and wrong .. you are worthless mate absolutely worthless in your allegations ..

This is all you can say: "absolutely ridiculous and wrong"...but you offer nothing else. Typical.

You're not only wilfully ignorant, you're totally dishonest.

 

[nino_savatte]

this is a thread about marx and immigration .. please deal with that as others do ..

why not try to debate both these positions?

"It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point" 1848

"..Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class..." 1870 letter


p.s. u accused me of misrepresenting marx .. how?


p.s. i do not support immigration controls ..

When did Ireland become independent of Britain, durutti?

This isn't a trick question btw, but it is obvious that there are massive gaps in your knowledge of the history of these islands.

p.s. i do not support immigration controls ..

You're lying. You talk about labour markets and you talk about "working class communities", all of these things are linked to immigration controls. Do I have to go and find one of your posts where you crap on about immigration?

 

[nino_savatte]

How is it "wrong"? You don't know how to read and to comprehend...and you've shown that by your misrepresentation of that letter.

You never answered my question, durutti. Too difficult for you?

 

[durruti02]

Yes, but not one that divides.

where is this critique you refer to?? .. i've not seen it ... seems to be that maybe this is dogmaticism in work .. putting the cart before the horse .. giving the answer before the question

as that marxist way of thinking ?? is that dialectics?? i do not think so ..

 

[durruti02]

When did Ireland become independent of Britain, durutti?

irrelevant entirely irrelevant .. we are talking about migration not where it is from or over what borders

This isn't a trick question btw, but it is obvious that there are massive gaps in your knowledge of the history of these islands.

no. not at all. your patronising assumptions bore peolpe on these boards

You're lying. You talk about labour markets and you talk about "working class communities", all of these things are linked to immigration controls. Do I have to go and find one of your posts where you crap on about immigration?

what right have you to say i am lying? you are totally ignorent to make such assumptions especially when you have NOT even bothered to read or try to understand these threads. I find it sad that you fail to see the differrence between arguing for border control by states and for control of working conditions by the unions/workers .. but this is sadly typical of the left today

p.s. you can search all my threads on immigration and all my threads and you will not find me anywhere calling for border controls indeed check out the Cesar Chavez thread and you will see me understanding his call for unions to close the borders to cheap labour .. and me saying that this was wrong

nino where do you get off making such fundamental and false assumptions about people? for many months you have followed me on these boards making false and ignorant hints and digs .. you have never come up with any evidence whatsoever and what is sadder it has blinded you to trying to see what is actually being debated ...

 

[audiotech]

where is this critique you refer to?? .. i've not seen it ... seems to be that maybe this is dogmaticism in work .. putting the cart before the horse .. giving the answer before the question

as that marxist way of thinking ?? is that dialectics?? i do not think so ..

Marx thought that capitalism sucks, which is my 'critique' also.

As for "dialetics" and "dogma"? It is you that is short on those two understandings, as you have learnt nothing from our arguments together.

 

[durruti02]

Marx thought that capitalism sucks, which is my 'critique' also.

As for "dialetics" and "dogma"? It is you that is short on those two understandings, as you have learnt nothing from our arguments together.

so how do we explain the contrdiction in his positions?

p.s. please explain how in what and where and i have learnt nothing .. that is a bit of a broad statement ..

 

[durruti02]

and nino did you forget? this is a thread about marx and immigration .. please deal with that as others do ..

why not try to debate both these positions?

"It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point" 1848

"..Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class..." 1870 letter

 

[nino_savatte]

what right have you to say i am lying? you are totally ignorent to make such assumptions especially when you have NOT even bothered to read or try to understand these threads. I find it sad that you fail to see the differrence between arguing for border control by states and for control of working conditions by the unions/workers .. but this is sadly typical of the left today

p.s. you can search all my threads on immigration and all my threads and you will not find me anywhere calling for border controls indeed check out the Cesar Chavez thread and you will see me understanding his call for unions to close the borders to cheap labour .. and me saying that this was wrong

nino where do you get off making such fundamental and false assumptions about people? for many months you have followed me on these boards making false and ignorant hints and digs .. you have never come up with any evidence whatsoever and what is sadder it has blinded you to trying to see what is actually being debated ...

Did you cut and paste someone else's text into my post? That's very underhanded, durutti.

I didn't post this

irrelevant entirely irrelevant .. we are talking about migration not where it is from or over what borders

Or this

no. not at all. your patronising assumptions bore peolpe on these boards

Isn't it about time you fought your own battles, instead of hanging onto someone else's coattails? Are you that intellectually dishonest that you have no other choice than to cheat?

You have the cheek to lecture me about "false assumptions about people", when you cut and paste beckyp's snipes into a quote? Tut tut tut, someone's projecting again.

for many months you have followed me on these boards making false and ignorant hints and digs

You're living in La La Land, pal. "Many months"? "Followed you around"? You really are a bit of a fantasist, aren't you?

Hope things are really groovy in duruttiworld tonight.

 

[audiotech]

so how do we explain the contrdiction in his positions?

p.s. please explain how in what and where and i have learnt nothing .. that is a bit of a broad statement ..

What contradiction? Marx highlighted the expoitative feature of capitalism, but also understood it's progressive internationalist flavour. So, if it came to a choice of reaction, or progress Marx would chose the latter. He chose the idea of internationalism over crude, xenophobic, nationalism.

You appear to have learnt nothing because you keep repeating the same mantra about controls on workers and keep posting things which you bizarrely believe give support to it.