urbanrevolt
New Member
Exactly. it is neoliberalism (or capitalism to call it by another name) that is the problem not immigrants.
Marx on immigration ..
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
urbanrevolt said:
not me not TB not mk not treelover not portman not siihi not red and black not ex not subcasual has ever said immigrants are the problem .. it is immigration for the purposes of neo liberalism, for cheap labour that is the problem ... like cheap labour is a problem but not those who are cheap labour, like sweat shops are a problem but not those who work in them
this is a big straw man the idea that immigrnmats are being blamed so the left can try to ignore the real issue of t the use and abuse of immigrants by neo liberalism
cockneyrebel
New Member
You can post up total rubbish like this if it makes you feel better but it doesn't help debate.
Clearly I don't support the "wiberal weft" any more than you and clearly I want workers control. As I've put in another thread what is stark about this is that people like you and Mk12 go on about how we have to talk about immigration but don't move beyond it, no practical solutions at all. At least tbaldwin had the honesty to say that he thinks the left should compete with the right for ever stricter immigration controls. A stupid way of looking at things in my view, but at least it's something practical.
Some interesting points by attica.
cockneyrebel said:
apologies but you clearly do NOT want workers control if you argue workers must submit to the bosses immigration mechanisms .. if you worry about the closed shop
and i do not move beyond?? what nonsense again . i have proposed a whole series of practical measures on urban .. picketing agencies .. campaigning for enforcement and improvement of employment laws .. arguing the TUs should make the closed shop a number one priority etc etc etc .. you lefties though are incredibly myopic when people actually propose ACTION ..
p.s. attica is saying nothing differrent from me .. except it is in a more academic format ( and he does not mention the EU which is key now) which i huess you are more comfortable with ..
cockneyrebel
New Member
Where have I argued that workers should submit to bosses immigration mechanisms? Far from it. But all you do is produce sound bytes, at least tbaldwin tries to come up with something concrete. What are you actually saying, that the current immigration system under a capitalist system is a bad thing, well blow me down with a feather......
If you mean to stop them from using poverty wages and scab labour, fair enough.
Agreed.
Better trade union rights, agreed.
I agree that ACTION is needed, I just don't see much practical being suggested, other than what a lot of left groups already say.
If you mean get better trade union rights, employment laws, a good minimum wage and build more social housing then I agree with all of it and agree that campaigns around all these issues and more like them are needed and need to be expanded upon.
But what are you actual proposal in terms of immigration. Just saying it's a bad thing doesn't really get anyone anywhere.
But listen to what. You're not actually proposing anything new. OK we've established that you think capitalism and capitalist immigration methods are a bad thing, hardly earth shattering. So where are you going from there. What are actually proposing is done about it that is new?
cockneyrebel
New Member
Not being sure about every detail is one thing. Offering utopian ideas and empty slogans as you are doing is another. Everything you've suggested is utter pie in the sky.
Do you really think that global immigration controls are ever gonna work under capitalism. It's pure fantasy. And then you go on to say that rich countries should assist poorer countries more. Step forward Bono and Geldof.
urbanrevolt
New Member
Last time I read this durruti and mk were claiming to agree with us!
of course we don't think workers should submit to bosses' immigration controls- that's why we're having this debate.
Now I've got to rush out to work at this moment I'm afraid but I do understand that d and tb and mk's apparent point is that bosses use migration to undercut wages etc. Bosses use anything they can it' capitalism... the question is how we resist..
Miltant trade unionism inlcuding closed ship, workers' control of struggles yes... endless threads about how immgration controls are necessary no.
of course we don't think workers should submit to bosses' immigration controls- that's why we're having this debate.
Now I've got to rush out to work at this moment I'm afraid but I do understand that d and tb and mk's apparent point is that bosses use migration to undercut wages etc. Bosses use anything they can it' capitalism... the question is how we resist..
Miltant trade unionism inlcuding closed ship, workers' control of struggles yes... endless threads about how immgration controls are necessary no.
cockneyrebel said:
1 No i am saying that measures can deter or encourage economic migartion which is clearly the case.
2 I think that you are trapped in a world view of absolutes....That is unless Capitalism is totally replaced everything else is useless....I think thats a very easy view from someone in an affluent country to take but ultimately its the wrong view.
Rich countries do assist poor countries when and if they see it as in their interests.
urbanrevolt said:
If you are an Internationalist it means looking at the international consequences of the policies you support/oppose.
Anybody looking into the consequences of supporting economic migartion and then arguing that its a good thing is totally wrong.
cockneyrebel said:
you are unorthodox then .. check the SW/SR articles and they argue that immigration is a GOOD thing .. indeed i seem to remember you arguing this many moons ago .. No? the rest of the lefties on here have consistently argued that the w/c benefits from immigration
cockneyrebel said:
as i have said before read what the SW put out .. and sorry but they ARE the biggest and most read lefty in this country .. (SP are more savvy on the subject)
it is popularly taken 4 granted that the left are in favour of immigration ( open borders internationalsism anti racism etc)
and that the far right are against immigration
p.s. you are listenning to talk sport lately?? .. both GG and gaunt
i am arguing we need NOT just a turn to the class in terms of activity ( again check the meetings and activity of the left .. palestine iraq etc will figure far higher than door to door campaigning)
BUT BUT BUT also a major propaganda attack on the bosses on capitalism re immigration .. it is a win win policy ..
do you not think it unbelievable that in a period of a right wing labour govt the left is so ineffectual?? it is because of issues like this where they have allowed liberal ideology to blind them to what capital is actually doing
a classist/workerist policy on immigration could be the salvation of progressive politics in this country .. sadly i doubt i will come about as the left are totally fked ... and indeed if this critique helps kill off lingering support for the liberal left .. good
cockneyrebel
New Member
No-one is denying that immigration controls can stem immigration, but they can't stop, globally, mass immigration. As said, the best you could do is a handful of richer countries with stalinist style border controls. What a great solution from a socialist.
You really think it's absolutist to say that there will always be mass poverty and starvation under capitalism. If so you're even more of a utopian than I thought. To suggest that rich capitalist countries are gonna suddenly turn round and stop poverty, starvation and war (the overwhelming causes of migration), is absurd.
Again you offer nothing but platitutes and calls for fortress borders in imperialist countries, an I'm alright jack answer and then follow up with utopian nonsense about how bad economic migration is, as if that's gonna stop it. Nothing practical at all.
There is no concrete answer and to be honest calling it good or bad is a nonsense. Capitalism causes war, mass poverty and starvation. That in turn causes migration. It's the former that is the bad thing and will always cause migration under capitalism.
The actual affects of global migration lead to untold misery because the causes are barbaric. But immigration also has positives as shown in the UK.
I should think that 99% of immigrants would rather have not been uprooted and forced to go 1000s of miles for jobs, safety, food etc but that's capitalism.
If you mean the left is for having equal rights for immigrants, providing asylum and brutal regimes and are against the BNP/Daily Mail agenda, you're right. In terms of whether immigration is good or bad, see above. Or do you actually think the left should say that immigration is bad? A stupid thing to say as it will feed into a negative agenda about immigrants. It would be as pointless as demanding left groups state that it's a bad thing that people move from the north of england to London.
As you've said, you're for open borders. It's not gonna happen under capitalism, anymore than stopping mass migration is. What is important is giving class answers on housing, the NHS, trade unions etc
And if you think the only reason the left is weak is because of their stance/activities around immigration you're sorely wrong. There are a myriad of reasons.
But don't think you're saying anything new, because you're not.
cockneyrebel said:
1 .. but the left call it good
2 .. but you would say you are against war/mass poverty and starvation?? so why not migration
3 agree
4 it is wrong to state that it is wrong that people are forced to migrate to live??????? how so????
5 agreed
6 but this is a classic and very now example
7 so who else says this?
cockneyrebel
New Member
You're right. The SWP also voted against open borders at the RESPECT conference.
Can you not see the difference? There is something wrong with war/mass poverty in any circumstances. There is nothing wrong with migration in and of itself, and there would be nothing wrong with it in a global socialist society. Poverty and war cause migration, and saying that migration is "bad" is just a nonsense, in its current form it happens because of the barbarity of capitalism.
There's nothing wrong with saying that people are forced to move, anything but. But that's very different from saying migration is bad in and of itself. Do I think it's bad that working class people move around the country or around the world if they want to? Of course not.
JoePolitix
Gone
Marx and the Irish Workers
When writing about Irish workers in England Marx accepted that they were used to force down wages and lower the moral and material conditions of the English working classes. However, Marx saw this process as intimately linked to England’s economic plunder of Ireland and the resultant forcing of its surplus labour into the English market. One could note that the present exploitation of Eastern Europe by western corporations under the guise of neo-liberalism is creating similar conditions.
Marx noted that the antagonism between English and Irish workers was kept alive by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes and that this was the “secret of the impotence of the English working class”. In turning his actions against the Irish labourer the English worker becomes “a tool of the aristocrats and capitalists of his country against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself”.
Its ironic that today its the TUC who are arguing that incorporating migrant workers into the UK labour movement is “the only way to prevent employers from using migrant labour to undercut terms and conditions and to prevent exploitation” whilst self proclaimed revolutionaries and even Marxists are arguing that the trade unions should be transformed into anti-immigrant organisations.
When writing about Irish workers in England Marx accepted that they were used to force down wages and lower the moral and material conditions of the English working classes. However, Marx saw this process as intimately linked to England’s economic plunder of Ireland and the resultant forcing of its surplus labour into the English market. One could note that the present exploitation of Eastern Europe by western corporations under the guise of neo-liberalism is creating similar conditions.
Marx noted that the antagonism between English and Irish workers was kept alive by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes and that this was the “secret of the impotence of the English working class”. In turning his actions against the Irish labourer the English worker becomes “a tool of the aristocrats and capitalists of his country against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself”.
Its ironic that today its the TUC who are arguing that incorporating migrant workers into the UK labour movement is “the only way to prevent employers from using migrant labour to undercut terms and conditions and to prevent exploitation” whilst self proclaimed revolutionaries and even Marxists are arguing that the trade unions should be transformed into anti-immigrant organisations.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Good post JP.
cockneyrebel said:
1 .. fair play .. i supect that is pragmatic .. they still argue immigration is good for the w/c
2 .. yes of course there is a differrence .. BUT we are talking about financial migration ehere .. why is it wrong to state it is WRONG that people are forced to migrate to live?? and as always WE are talking about its current form ... to talk otherwise would be abstract
3 .. it is not bad that people want to travel .. i think most migration though is not desired .. i think it is almost always a consequence of capitalism .. sure there are people who want to move to cornwall etc BUT BUT BUT and this is another argument this process ALSO has major negative consequences for local people as the local bishop was pointing out the other day .. ( obviously a BNP supportter!
)JoePolitix said:
1 .. hey good a marxist who know their marx !!
2 .. but not enough
.. he did NOT stop arguing against the bosses using immigrant labour against unions .. but your point stands,that it is also CRITICAL while arguing AGAINST the bosses using and abusing migrnat labour to ALSO argue against racism and reaction 3 .. NO one is arguing against orgnaising migrant labour JP .. where did you get that nonsense from???
I mean, and I still just do not know whether you apprecaite this, whether immigration hurts people regardless of nationality, not race etc. I have very few doubts that you and TB are only considering whites in your analysis: but are you considering non-nationals. I guess you must be: but, I think you, simply must, stress this more to help the debate. I am yet to read any posts since mine, so I hope to get back to you...durruti02 said:
118118 said:
of course forced migration hurts all peoples!! that is partly the point of this debate ( i am more interested in studying what the bosses do and why and how we can react)
of course we do NOT only consider whites .. we both live and work in majoirty non white areas and if you take a look at voice or new nation you will see ho wthose communities regard this new migration!! even diane abbot stated a few years ago how mad/wrong it is that her local hospital brings in people from teh other side of the world instead of employing local ( mainly afro carib british)
and yes in a way i am disregarding non locals .. we NEED to get our OWN act together before we can worry about others ..
Definetly agree with this, but none of us have the resources
Though I disagree with this. We are stronger if we act together, and we are all in the same boat - despite what is probably an attempt to futher set our interest apart from one another.
Not relevent but: it must be so easy to screw over the working class, I mean, its not that these people spend all day planning ways to do so, but they do and it patently deliberate (something I didn't necessarily believe: an enemy yes, but not one that is so through choice) even if it is utterly inconsequential to them at times like this at least. I mean, its not the actions of social democratic parties at times of revolution that have convinced me of this, I'm not sure what it was, perhaps a feeling that used to put people with similar interests, and maybe those that I thought were like me too, before those of working class. Before I got ill and lost the lot, you understand :-/
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