1 Misrepresentative of what?
There are over 8 million people unemployed and underemployed in the UK. Of course there chances are going to be effected by competition for jobs,wouldnt you say?
2 You dont see any problem in inequality full stop ?
Immigration "small benefit" to UK
- Thread starter Dhimmi
- Start date
1 Misrepresentative of what?
There are over 8 million people unemployed and underemployed in the UK. Of course there chances are going to be effected by competition for jobs,wouldnt you say?
2 You dont see any problem in inequality full stop ?
'Pay workers properly'? I take it you mean having a taxation system that's progressive? Why do you ask such questions, when you know what the answer is going to be ffs?
Ashamed? Dear me, another highbrow question to ponder.
why? cos there is a contradiction in you and all the others lefts response on this .. you defend immigration and then say you support a proper paid system .. but utterly ignore that immigration ONLY exists as it does now as part of a cheap labour system .. the two are mutually exclusive ( not 100%) but pretty well ) .. you have a proper paid/financed system you have minimal immigration .. yes?
and so out of interest are you ashamed?
audiotech
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Post #100. Poster wonders "how can we have a labour shortage with 3 million out of work?"
Not sure who is included in the "we"?
However, the implied notion is that poster wants the three million in work and never mind that some will be ill, disabled, or just prefer early retirement, and btw, 'fuck the immigrants'?
No doubt training will be mentioned at this point? Training? What for?
audiotech
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A 'proper paid/financed system and you have minimal immigration'?
So, you think that British capitalism can deliver this 'proper paid/financed system' do you? Because all evidence points to the contrary.
Yes I will defend immigration. What I won't defend is the exploitation of immigrants, so no contradiction at all.
Most 'immigrants' these days are not how you paint them, or how others perceive them to be anyway. Most are mainly young migrants from Europe travelling and working for short periods. Some are highly skilled and earn good money, but there are those immigrants who do poorly paid work (which has alway's existed and fought against) who I defend and give support to. Gangmasters need to be outlawed and the minimum wage enforced vigorously.
Ashamed? No!
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
That's not what I mean at all and you know it. I've gone on record on here many times against the cuts in welfare for such people who are unable to work for whatever reason. This is more than I can say for what laughably passes for the left these days; which either does it's "dog that does not bark" act over the issue or - worse - does it's "nodding dog" act and pants in support.
There's a lot of people who are seeking work, however, who cannot get it due to the ludicrous amount of competition in the job market which encourages employers to demand potential applicants dance through ever-tighter hoops in order to obtain work. These people often cannot get any work on account of the chicanery they end up falling foul of.
You can hardly call for tighter controls on the minimum wage and gangmasters etc at the same time as calling for unlimited migration though can you?
If you don not even regulate who is living in a country how do you expect to police a minimum wage?
The more immigrants you have surely the harder it becomes to look after their interests.
Course you can. All labour isn't equal you know. Are yo suggesting forcing people into vacancies.
Blimey, even in countries where there was slavery they couldn't 'persuade' people to fill all the vacancies in the colonies adequately. Remember that in many colonies they brought over indentured workers to perform much agricultural work becuase the (African) slaves showed little aptitude or willingness.
Blimey, even in countries where there was slavery they couldn't 'persuade' people to fill all the vacancies in the colonies adequately. Remember that in many colonies they brought over indentured workers to perform much agricultural work becuase the (African) slaves showed little aptitude or willingness.
of course british capitalism can not!! LOL !!!what has that got to do with anything??? .. this is about what a PROPER left shold be arguing for!!!
and yes there is a contradiction! it is bleeding obvious!! .. the exploitation of immigrants is INTREGAL to immigration and a cheap labour economy .. WE WOULD NOT HAVE THE CURRENT LEVELS OF IMMIGRATION WITHOUT THIS CHEAP LABOUR ECONOMY
you against cheap labour economy?? .. then you are against immigration ( as it is currently) .. you can NOT have it both ways
so not ashamed that the country you grew up in has become based on cheap labour?? and importing it that labour while millions are left without hope?? you are a strange socialist mate
audiotech
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Unlimited immigration? There is no such thing and that wouldn't change even if there were open borders.
audiotech
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No, well that's where you end up with your anti-immigration, how can there be a shortage of labour with three million out of work nonsense.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Still no answer to this, I note.
audiotech
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Low pay, as a feature of the British economy, was here a long time before immigrants became part of the equation.
Well at least you've nailed your colours firmly to the mast at last and come out as anti-immigrant.
It is you that should be ashamed.
audiotech
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Answer to what?
A prescriptive account of the competitive job market, which we all have to jump through hoops to, is not a question?
GET TO FUCK
dear oh dear ffs MC you do fuck up so sometimes please show / qoute / point to where i have said anything that is anti immigrant or apologise now .. please
to repeat .. i said "the exploitation of immigrants is INTREGAL to immigration and a cheap labour economy" and that means (SHOCK!) i am AGAINST the expoitation of immigrants .. only in the confused mind of an ex trotskyist could that equate to be 'anti-immigrant' .. but hey i am open minded .. EXPLAIN YOUR LOGIC!
ok i can not be so arrogent to expect you to follow all my posts but i have dealt with this many times (to be honest this is what i said in the 'Immigration part of Thatcherism' thread mate )
1) back in social contract UK we did NOT have low pay of the uncontrolled type on anywhere like the scale we have now .. agreed?
2) thatcherism changed this .. agreed?
3) her actions ( deliberately?? agree? ) created a large unemployed 'reserve army' who were prepared to accept low pay .. agree?
BUT now
4) after 15 20 years of this shite 'indiginous' ( black and white etc ) will no longer will accept these wages/conditions .. agree?
5)from bosses either greedy to maximise profits OR competing with cheap wages overseas .. agree?
6)so neo liberalism can NOT use indiginous workers ..agree?
7) and HENCE imports immigrants .. agree?
so you do not ask yourself WHY people do not want these jobs??????? you simply accept that we should import cheap labour to fill them?????
Spion
I hear ya
'cheap labour' = people I feel I have no right to deny access to jobs by my demanding the UK state stop them
Because some people think they're above doing those jobs, for whatever reason.
It's not always about salaries. Whether we like to admit it or not there are plenty of jobs that people don't want to do because they consider them beneath themselves or too much hard work. Now I happen to know, for example, that there are long-term vacancies for traffic wardens locally - a mate just reluctantly took a position up - roles which are flexible and pay a fair bit better than the minimum wage, certainly better than the hospitality sector roles which seem to be far more popular and easily filled.
(Not so) Strangely enough traffic wardens around us are dismissively tagged the African mafia.
You willing to concede that it's far from always about simplistic SHOUTY and dismissive notions???????!??!?! (lost control and Durruti'd there) of importing 'cheap labour'
It's not always about salaries. Whether we like to admit it or not there are plenty of jobs that people don't want to do because they consider them beneath themselves or too much hard work. Now I happen to know, for example, that there are long-term vacancies for traffic wardens locally - a mate just reluctantly took a position up - roles which are flexible and pay a fair bit better than the minimum wage, certainly better than the hospitality sector roles which seem to be far more popular and easily filled.
(Not so) Strangely enough traffic wardens around us are dismissively tagged the African mafia.
You willing to concede that it's far from always about simplistic SHOUTY and dismissive notions???????!??!?! (lost control and Durruti'd there) of importing 'cheap labour'
your are partially right
BUT the issue is NOT to deny those people jobs BUT to deny the bosses the right to employ and import cheap labour and INSTEAD to employ local people at proper rates
and the state is only part of the equation .. it is ultimately and fundamentally about the availablity of cheap labour jobs .. ( both in the US and here) .. the state has some influence but ultimately its role is in using immigration ideologically ( and physically ) to control and discipline us
yeah whatever .. nice daily telegraph tory shite as is your usual
Spion
I hear ya
Whichever way you wiggle, if you want to employ some people INSTEAD of others you are de facto denying someone a job, in this case because they come from somewhere else.
For all the effort you'd expend trying to force this on the bosses you may as well fight for a consistently working class strategy which forces the bosses to provide jobs, decent pay and services for ALL
So you do want to deal in facile soundbitesand throw your dummy outta pram again, or have you got anything substantive to add?
How about that real world example of a traffic warden for example? Why so dismissive?
the w/c movement and the trade unions have always had the denial of job and work as a key weapon in their armoury .. the closed shop is about denial of work to those who will not join unions for example
you can concentrate on the negative of you like .. it seems to me the practical issue of recreating a strong united w/c in this country outwsays your moral problem with what you see as denying work to someone living in another country
but WITHOUT talking about immigration without being open about it YOU and i weill not be able to create teh movment we both ultimately seek
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Same old same old on this thread then.
look there is NO united w/c and there is barely a w/c movement
and there is NO divison in what i say, as you suggest and certainly no more division than there is already .. nationality ( or race as the left ALWAYS say) just doesn't come into it ..
we are all working class it is just the priority must always be to create something where you live ..
the way you and many of the left talk is if we have a successful left .. we do not .. it is tiny marginalised impotent .. yet you carry on as if you are massive central and powerful
all the things you say ( and repeat over and over again) have been tried .. and they have failed
apologies for resorting to my 'tory' insult but i get sick of this continual "some people think they're above doing those jobs, for whatever reason." I see that as an insult .. maybe you should ask yourself why people might see that as an insult?
you never seem to think WHY people do not take shit jobs .. and blandly state 'for whatever reason' .. well it is that 'whatever the reason ' bit that is actually the key to it all mate
p.s. i have never said immigration is simply about cheap labour either BUT in the last few years that has been a KEY aspect of neo liberalism ..
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