poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
No, it shows how the UK was in dire need of a (much) higher minimum wage.
Immigration "small benefit" to UK
- Thread starter Dhimmi
- Start date
No, it shows how the UK was in dire need of a (much) higher minimum wage.
And do you think that would lead to which of the following outcomes in this instance:
a) British food more highly priced, either causing the death of UK Agriculture or making local goods the preserve of the middle classes.
or
B) Everyone lives happily after. Problem solved
a) British food more highly priced, either causing the death of UK Agriculture or making local goods the preserve of the middle classes.
or
B) Everyone lives happily after. Problem solved
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
British food became more highly priced anyway, so bang goes that one.
Your argument reminds me of how the bosses used to say to the UK workforce: "don't be militant - or all your jobs will be sent abroad!". Well, everyone obligingly became the least militant in decades and guess what happened anyway?
I always thought you were meant to be on the left, tarranau, and here we have you arguing in support of free international trade and against rises in the minimum wage!
_angel_
.
IMO locally sourced foods are becoming the preserve of the middle classes. Food prices have risen. Supermarkets are squeezing local producers hard. I can see how a minimum wage increase might squeeze small farmers, but can't see how it would make food too expensive for people to eat, after all, they'd be getting paid more themselves, surely
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
I have no idea what the effect on wages has been other than people say immigrants have led to a decrease in some industries. Can anyone tell me which industries and give me some examples? I think the vast majority of Poles etc work in agriculture or in sarnie factories etc, so I would expect those wages to be effected if any. When I was at uni a lot of my friends got summer jobs in sarnie factories because altho it was a shit job, it paid quite highly for what it was (about £7/hour iirc so we're talking about a time when min wage was around £4.20 ish). It was a high wage because it was an unpopular job, probably the same reason why you find a lot of foreign workers now working in other traditionally thought-of unpopular jobs like fast food restaurants (again another job students would do to earn a bit of extra cash). Obviously, these are casual jobs that people probably don't rely on for a long term career, but I don't know about other industries where immigrants have entered the market, can someone give any examples??
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
To be fair that's not to far away from the arguments used to oppose the introduction of the minimum wage in the first place...
No, I'm arguing for a realistic approach to food. It's not an internationalist free market postion to point out that the vast majority of British farmers earn next to fuck all in present conditions.
British agriculture has already been decimated by agribusinesses and is under severe pressure - people would often rather just make farmland residential property these days . Increading the minimum wage may not even attract hesitant British workers back to the fields, but it'll certainly put some more farmers into trouble.
British agriculture has already been decimated by agribusinesses and is under severe pressure - people would often rather just make farmland residential property these days . Increading the minimum wage may not even attract hesitant British workers back to the fields, but it'll certainly put some more farmers into trouble.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
I will read the report, ta. However, I doubt that anyone will actually want to discuss the contents rather than the general ban immigration bollocks that the media is representing.
The thing is, I can't exactly see anyone there who is going to stand up and say "it's the system that's wrong", so I'm not holding out that anyone has approached it with anything more critical than a liberal viewpoint.
I wonder if the report actually offers any solutions.
IMO locally sourced foods are becoming the preserve of the middle classes. Food prices have risen. Supermarkets are squeezing local producers hard. I can see how a minimum wage increase might squeeze small farmers, but can't see how it would make food too expensive for people to eat, after all, they'd be getting paid more themselves, surely
Not true when it comes to seasonal or staple produce though. You still can get massively cheap local goods from markets at the right times of the year.
It's the stuff in polytunnels over here that's uncompetitive and energy consuming.
_angel_
.
I'd get around that by introducing more government subsidy to small farmers and small businesses who may have legitimate reasons to be unable to pay their workers the higher minimum wage.
But it's not those people the government are trying to appease by keeping it so low, it's the big businesses, supermarkets etc who can easily absorb a rise in wages who stop them from doing so.
For example it's ridiculous we have a system that so blatantly acknowledges the fact the minimum wage is unliveable, so you have to have state benefits topping up the difference (housing/ council tax benefit, working family tax credits etc)
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Normal Lamont, defender of the poor... "Rising unemployment and the recession have been the price that we have had to pay to get inflation down. That price is well worth paying", who'd have thunk it...
How many blinking subsidies do you want the farmer to have to deal with? It's another layer of red tape and ppaer work that small farmers are ill equipped to deal with, adding costs and effort all round.
I used to spend a good chunk of my childhood summers at a small dairy farm in Derbyshire. Fast forward nigh on 20 years and the local farming area has been decimated. They're still working the fields on diminishing returns, the man now running the local petrol station and his wife a B&B business from the farm house to make ebnds meet. It's depressing if I'm honest.
These guys arean't Tescos or an multinational organisation set up to apply for subsidies and deal with the minimum wage. And, as others have suggested, it's a little bit of a nonsense to suggest that it's solely about the minimum wage - they tend to pay above that to compensate for the hard, temporary work and still struggle to attract locals.
I used to spend a good chunk of my childhood summers at a small dairy farm in Derbyshire. Fast forward nigh on 20 years and the local farming area has been decimated. They're still working the fields on diminishing returns, the man now running the local petrol station and his wife a B&B business from the farm house to make ebnds meet. It's depressing if I'm honest.
These guys arean't Tescos or an multinational organisation set up to apply for subsidies and deal with the minimum wage. And, as others have suggested, it's a little bit of a nonsense to suggest that it's solely about the minimum wage - they tend to pay above that to compensate for the hard, temporary work and still struggle to attract locals.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Just making comments as I read that report...
It's all pretty standard stuff so far, although it shows that net migration is still not so bad. As I understand it, it seems to suggest that immigration will probably slow down from Eastern Europe quicker than people think, and that stopping using English as a national language and having a strong economy may reduce immigration rates.
It's all pretty standard stuff so far, although it shows that net migration is still not so bad. As I understand it, it seems to suggest that immigration will probably slow down from Eastern Europe quicker than people think, and that stopping using English as a national language and having a strong economy may reduce immigration rates.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
It's odd how a paper that begins by pointing out how flawed the data is on immigration and citing that it may not be fit for purpose, continues to use that data...
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Interesting, it appears that it's only since Eastern Europe immigration that immigrants have been used on a massive scale as cheap labour.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
As anarchists and lefties have argued for years, the paper is calling for GDP pc rather than national GDP to be called as the measure for national success... well duh! I'd like to see evidence for Lawson or Lamont arguing for this when they actually had power 
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
The National Minimum Wage is praised for having shielded the working class from the worst effects!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Which "British citizens" are those, and what are these jobs that "economic migrants" are taking?
And if shite was sugar you'd smell sweet.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
"The available evidence suggests that immigration has had a small
negative impact on the lowest-paid workers in the UK, and a small
positive impact on the earnings of higher-paid workers. Resident
workers whose wages have been adversely affected by immigration
are likely to include a significant proportion of previous immigrants
and workers from ethnic minority groups."
I wonder what counts as small?
negative impact on the lowest-paid workers in the UK, and a small
positive impact on the earnings of higher-paid workers. Resident
workers whose wages have been adversely affected by immigration
are likely to include a significant proportion of previous immigrants
and workers from ethnic minority groups."
I wonder what counts as small?
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
"The available evidence is insufficient to draw clear conclusions about
the impact of immigration on unemployment in the UK. It is possible,
although not yet proven, that immigration adversely affects the
employment opportunities of young people who are competing with
young immigrants from the A8 countries. More research is needed to
examine the impact of recent immigration on unemployment among
different groups of resident workers in the UK."
the impact of immigration on unemployment in the UK. It is possible,
although not yet proven, that immigration adversely affects the
employment opportunities of young people who are competing with
young immigrants from the A8 countries. More research is needed to
examine the impact of recent immigration on unemployment among
different groups of resident workers in the UK."
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
"Our recent report on apprenticeship and skills argued that the
Government was not doing enough to develop high quality
apprenticeships.46 Although the evidence is limited, there is a clear
danger that immigration has some adverse impact on training
opportunities and apprenticeships offered to British workers"
However, they have completely failed to demonstrate this - the earlier paragraph data is about how there is no firm evidence to show that fact. So far my reading of this report is that the data shows that immigration is actually a non-issue... it's not as bad as people think, and not as good as the government say. But the report's abstract makes it read entirely anti-imm.
Government was not doing enough to develop high quality
apprenticeships.46 Although the evidence is limited, there is a clear
danger that immigration has some adverse impact on training
opportunities and apprenticeships offered to British workers"
However, they have completely failed to demonstrate this - the earlier paragraph data is about how there is no firm evidence to show that fact. So far my reading of this report is that the data shows that immigration is actually a non-issue... it's not as bad as people think, and not as good as the government say. But the report's abstract makes it read entirely anti-imm.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
97. In the short term, immigration creates winners and losers in
economic terms. The biggest winners include immigrants and their
employers in the UK. Consumers may also benefit from immigration
through lower prices. The losers are likely to include those employed
in low-paid jobs and directly competing with new immigrant workers.
This group includes some ethnic minorities and a significant share of
immigrants already working in the UK.
98. In the short term, immigration may put pressure on the employment
opportunities of young people. In the long run, the economic impacts
of immigration on the resident population are likely to be fairly small.
Thus a key question is how quickly the economy adjusts to
immigration. Much more empirical work might usefully be done on
the labour market and macroeconomic impacts of immigration in the
UK.
economic terms. The biggest winners include immigrants and their
employers in the UK. Consumers may also benefit from immigration
through lower prices. The losers are likely to include those employed
in low-paid jobs and directly competing with new immigrant workers.
This group includes some ethnic minorities and a significant share of
immigrants already working in the UK.
98. In the short term, immigration may put pressure on the employment
opportunities of young people. In the long run, the economic impacts
of immigration on the resident population are likely to be fairly small.
Thus a key question is how quickly the economy adjusts to
immigration. Much more empirical work might usefully be done on
the labour market and macroeconomic impacts of immigration in the
UK.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Price adjustments and other alternatives to immigration
109. Professor David Metcalf, Chairman of the new Migration Advisory
Committee (MAC) that advises the Government on immigration and labour
shortages, told us that “the whole notion of shortages is a bit of a slippery
concept” (Q 557). Basic economic theory suggests that labour shortages
occur when the demand for labour exceeds the supply of workers who are
qualified, available and willing to do the job. Vacancies exist because
employers wish to recruit more workers than are willing to work at the
prevailing wage. In a simple economic model of a competitive labour market,
where demand and supply of labour are critically determined by the price of
labour, most labour shortages are temporary and eventually eliminated by
rising wages.
110. In practice, labour markets do not always work as the simple textbook model
suggests. How, and how quickly, prices clear labour markets can depend on
the source of the labour shortages, which could include sudden increases in
demand or inflexible supply (because, for example, it takes time to train local
workers). Moreover, how local labour supply reacts to a change in wages
varies across sectors and occupations. A 10% wage increase may be enough
to encourage more British workers to fill vacancies in hospitality, but it may
not be enough to increase domestic labour supply in sectors such as
agriculture and others that involve work that some workers consider as “low
status”. In a few sectors, wages may have to rise significantly to attract local
workers. However, Professor Rowthorn argued that “there may be one or
two jobs like that but markets exist … if wages are higher, eventually people
will be drawn into occupations” (Q 17). The recent ITEM Club report notes
that “we do not know how the domestic labour supply would have reacted to
rising growth in 2004–06 in the absence of increased immigration. It might
have proved surprisingly [responsive] via increased participation rates in
marginal groups”.53
111. Most of our witnesses from employer organisations were explicit about low
pay being a key explanation of the difficulties employers have with recruiting
local workers and of the high share of immigrant labour in their sectors. For
example, explaining the reasons for shortages in the social care sector,
Mr Hadley of the REC, said that “we just cannot get enough people on our
books to fill the need and part of it is the pay is actually quite low and is a
factor possibly” (Q 145). Josie Irwin of the Royal College of Nursing argued
that “if nurses were paid a fair salary, then they clearly would have an
economic impact in attracting domestic trained nurses to join the workforce”
(Q 296). Ms Irwin further suggested that there would be a greater supply of
domestic trained nurses if the Government had provided more training
109. Professor David Metcalf, Chairman of the new Migration Advisory
Committee (MAC) that advises the Government on immigration and labour
shortages, told us that “the whole notion of shortages is a bit of a slippery
concept” (Q 557). Basic economic theory suggests that labour shortages
occur when the demand for labour exceeds the supply of workers who are
qualified, available and willing to do the job. Vacancies exist because
employers wish to recruit more workers than are willing to work at the
prevailing wage. In a simple economic model of a competitive labour market,
where demand and supply of labour are critically determined by the price of
labour, most labour shortages are temporary and eventually eliminated by
rising wages.
110. In practice, labour markets do not always work as the simple textbook model
suggests. How, and how quickly, prices clear labour markets can depend on
the source of the labour shortages, which could include sudden increases in
demand or inflexible supply (because, for example, it takes time to train local
workers). Moreover, how local labour supply reacts to a change in wages
varies across sectors and occupations. A 10% wage increase may be enough
to encourage more British workers to fill vacancies in hospitality, but it may
not be enough to increase domestic labour supply in sectors such as
agriculture and others that involve work that some workers consider as “low
status”. In a few sectors, wages may have to rise significantly to attract local
workers. However, Professor Rowthorn argued that “there may be one or
two jobs like that but markets exist … if wages are higher, eventually people
will be drawn into occupations” (Q 17). The recent ITEM Club report notes
that “we do not know how the domestic labour supply would have reacted to
rising growth in 2004–06 in the absence of increased immigration. It might
have proved surprisingly [responsive] via increased participation rates in
marginal groups”.53
111. Most of our witnesses from employer organisations were explicit about low
pay being a key explanation of the difficulties employers have with recruiting
local workers and of the high share of immigrant labour in their sectors. For
example, explaining the reasons for shortages in the social care sector,
Mr Hadley of the REC, said that “we just cannot get enough people on our
books to fill the need and part of it is the pay is actually quite low and is a
factor possibly” (Q 145). Josie Irwin of the Royal College of Nursing argued
that “if nurses were paid a fair salary, then they clearly would have an
economic impact in attracting domestic trained nurses to join the workforce”
(Q 296). Ms Irwin further suggested that there would be a greater supply of
domestic trained nurses if the Government had provided more training
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
places and made nursing more attractive by offering higher salaries and
better employment conditions 10 to 15 years ago (Q 299).
112. The NFU said that wages in agriculture are significantly lower than in other
sectors and that “migrants perform tasks, at rates of pay, which most
domestic workers would be unwilling to work at” (p 100). This last comment
illustrates a key issue, namely, that employers’ expressed “need” for
immigrant labour is often a demand for labour that can be employed at
current rates of pay, rather than at higher wages that are generally necessary
to attract labour in a competitive market.
113. Immigration keeps labour costs lower than they would be without
immigrants. These lower labour costs also benefit consumers, who
then pay less than they otherwise would for products and services
(including public services) produced or provided by immigrants.
114. A number of witnesses argued that raising wages for workers employed to
provide services in or for the public sector is severely limited by cost
pressures in the public sector. Lesley Rimmer of the UK Home Care
Association told us that “two thirds of employers say it is difficult or
impossible to recruit locally at current rates of pay and these pay rates are
primarily a reflection of what councils are willing to pay since they make up
80% of the purchasers of care services” (Q 300). Dr Anderson argued that
increasing wages to attract local workers would require a reform of the UK’s
social care system. “If there were no immigration, there really would have to
be a big re-think about how social care and care of the elderly was organized;
really big, back-to-first premises” (Q 30).
115. Dr Borman of the BMA explained how the UK public health sector benefits
from the employment of immigrant doctors. He said: “Migrants are carrying
their primary qualifications and their expertise to the United Kingdom
effectively for free. It costs in the order of … a quarter of a million pounds to
qualify a doctor within the United Kingdom medical school system and
clearly, having a doctor who has qualified abroad, bringing those
qualifications means a net gain to the United Kingdom” (Q 300). Making a
similar point, Ms Irwin of the Royal College of Nursing suggested in her
evidence on the employment of foreign nurses in the UK that “in general
terms, the employment of migrants is a deliberate policy choice to employ a
workforce at a lower cost” (Q 294).
116. It is clear that various low-wage sectors of the UK economy (in both private
and public sectors) are currently heavily dependent on immigrant labour.
Increasing wages to attract more British workers to produce or provide a
certain product or service can be expected to lead to an increase in the price
and thus affect consumers of that product or service. In the public sector,
higher labour costs could result in higher taxes and/or require a restructuring
of the way in which some services such as social care are provided.
Nevertheless, the fundamental point remains that labour demand, supply
and thus the existence and size of labour shortages critically depend on
wages—the price of labour. Arguments about the “need” for migrant labour
that ignore price adjustments are meaningless and misleading.
117. Increasing wages is only one among various potential alternatives to
immigration for responding to perceived labour shortages. The list of
potential options for employers includes:
38 THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION
• increasing wages and/or improving working conditions to attract more
local workers who are either inactive, unemployed, or employed in other
sectors;
• changing the production process to make it less labour-intensive, for
example, increasing the capital and/or technology intensity;
• relocating to countries where labour costs are lower;
• switching to production (provision) of less labour-intensive commodities
and services;
• employing immigrant workers.
118. Although not all of these options will be technically feasible for all
employers—for instance, the work of waiters in the hospitality sector cannot
be off-shored—many employers will face a number of options. An employer’s
decision on how to respond to a perceived labour shortage will naturally
depend on the relative costs of each of the alternatives. Just as immigration
may discourage employers, including those in the public sector, from raising
wages and investing in training and skill development of the domestic
workforce (see the discussion in chapter 3), the ready access to cheap
migrant labour may reduce employers’ incentives to consider other
options, in particular changing production methods.
119. Professor Chiswick noted that, if there were fewer low-skilled workers in the
harvesting of field crops: “Farm managers would pay higher wages to attract
native-born workers and this would speed up the mechanization of the
harvesting of field crops. The technology is there, but with low wages for
farm labourers there is little economic incentive for the growers to mechanize
or invest in other types of new technology” (p 425). This was precisely the
experience of the US tomato-processing industry where growers argued that
the industry could not do without migrants. But subsequent mechanization
increased productivity and reduced prices.54
120. Professor Christian Dustmann pointed out that “there is evidence that
technology adjusts to the availability of labour in particular parts of the skill
distribution” (Q 175). He gave the example of “the wine industry in
Australia and California, which is highly labour intensive in California and
highly mechanised in Australia, the reason being that it is very easy to get
unskilled workers in California but not in Australia” (Q 175).
121. Mr Ratcliffe of the Construction Confederation suggested that off-shoring
certain types of production, or importing certain products, is possible in the
construction industry but critically depends on the cost incentives that
employers are confronted with: “... [offshoring] is quite feasible but it is a
question of economics as to whether it is cheaper. Certainly in Catterick they
are doing some military accommodation up there and all the bathrooms are
simply transported in, having been made in factory, so certainly one of the
responses to skills shortages will be more off-site prefabrication; it is an idea
which is catching on quite nicely in the industry” (Q 143).
122. We recognise that many public and private enterprises currently rely
upon immigrants—from the NHS to City institutions, from the
54 Martin, P. et al (2006) Managing Labor Migration in the Twenty-first Century, Yale University Press, New
Haven, p. 126–127
THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION 39
construction industry to residential care. We do not doubt the great
value of this workforce from overseas to UK businesses and public
services. Nevertheless, the argument that sustained net immigration
is needed to fill vacancies, and that immigrants do the jobs that locals
cannot or will not do, is fundamentally flawed. It ignores the potential
alternatives to immigration for responding to labour shortages,
including the price adjustments of a competitive labour market and
the associated increase in local labour supply that can be expected to
occur in the absence of immigration. Each of the alternative ways of
responding to labour shortages involves its own economic costs and benefits.
Rather than deducing a need for immigrant labour from the existence of
vacancies in the economy, the discussion about how to respond to labour
shortages should be based on analysis of the feasibility and net benefits to the
resident population from the various alternatives including immigration.
123. Immigration encouraged as a “quick fix” in response to perceived labour and
skills shortages reduces employers’ incentives to consider and invest in
alternatives. It will also reduce domestic workers’ incentives to acquire the
training and skills necessary to do certain jobs. Consequently, immigration
designed to address short term shortages may have the unintended
consequence of creating the conditions that encourage shortages of
local workers in the longer term.
124. We recognise that there is a case for enabling employers to hire
significant numbers of highly-skilled foreign workers. But whether
this implies net immigration is an issue to which we return later.
better employment conditions 10 to 15 years ago (Q 299).
112. The NFU said that wages in agriculture are significantly lower than in other
sectors and that “migrants perform tasks, at rates of pay, which most
domestic workers would be unwilling to work at” (p 100). This last comment
illustrates a key issue, namely, that employers’ expressed “need” for
immigrant labour is often a demand for labour that can be employed at
current rates of pay, rather than at higher wages that are generally necessary
to attract labour in a competitive market.
113. Immigration keeps labour costs lower than they would be without
immigrants. These lower labour costs also benefit consumers, who
then pay less than they otherwise would for products and services
(including public services) produced or provided by immigrants.
114. A number of witnesses argued that raising wages for workers employed to
provide services in or for the public sector is severely limited by cost
pressures in the public sector. Lesley Rimmer of the UK Home Care
Association told us that “two thirds of employers say it is difficult or
impossible to recruit locally at current rates of pay and these pay rates are
primarily a reflection of what councils are willing to pay since they make up
80% of the purchasers of care services” (Q 300). Dr Anderson argued that
increasing wages to attract local workers would require a reform of the UK’s
social care system. “If there were no immigration, there really would have to
be a big re-think about how social care and care of the elderly was organized;
really big, back-to-first premises” (Q 30).
115. Dr Borman of the BMA explained how the UK public health sector benefits
from the employment of immigrant doctors. He said: “Migrants are carrying
their primary qualifications and their expertise to the United Kingdom
effectively for free. It costs in the order of … a quarter of a million pounds to
qualify a doctor within the United Kingdom medical school system and
clearly, having a doctor who has qualified abroad, bringing those
qualifications means a net gain to the United Kingdom” (Q 300). Making a
similar point, Ms Irwin of the Royal College of Nursing suggested in her
evidence on the employment of foreign nurses in the UK that “in general
terms, the employment of migrants is a deliberate policy choice to employ a
workforce at a lower cost” (Q 294).
116. It is clear that various low-wage sectors of the UK economy (in both private
and public sectors) are currently heavily dependent on immigrant labour.
Increasing wages to attract more British workers to produce or provide a
certain product or service can be expected to lead to an increase in the price
and thus affect consumers of that product or service. In the public sector,
higher labour costs could result in higher taxes and/or require a restructuring
of the way in which some services such as social care are provided.
Nevertheless, the fundamental point remains that labour demand, supply
and thus the existence and size of labour shortages critically depend on
wages—the price of labour. Arguments about the “need” for migrant labour
that ignore price adjustments are meaningless and misleading.
117. Increasing wages is only one among various potential alternatives to
immigration for responding to perceived labour shortages. The list of
potential options for employers includes:
38 THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION
• increasing wages and/or improving working conditions to attract more
local workers who are either inactive, unemployed, or employed in other
sectors;
• changing the production process to make it less labour-intensive, for
example, increasing the capital and/or technology intensity;
• relocating to countries where labour costs are lower;
• switching to production (provision) of less labour-intensive commodities
and services;
• employing immigrant workers.
118. Although not all of these options will be technically feasible for all
employers—for instance, the work of waiters in the hospitality sector cannot
be off-shored—many employers will face a number of options. An employer’s
decision on how to respond to a perceived labour shortage will naturally
depend on the relative costs of each of the alternatives. Just as immigration
may discourage employers, including those in the public sector, from raising
wages and investing in training and skill development of the domestic
workforce (see the discussion in chapter 3), the ready access to cheap
migrant labour may reduce employers’ incentives to consider other
options, in particular changing production methods.
119. Professor Chiswick noted that, if there were fewer low-skilled workers in the
harvesting of field crops: “Farm managers would pay higher wages to attract
native-born workers and this would speed up the mechanization of the
harvesting of field crops. The technology is there, but with low wages for
farm labourers there is little economic incentive for the growers to mechanize
or invest in other types of new technology” (p 425). This was precisely the
experience of the US tomato-processing industry where growers argued that
the industry could not do without migrants. But subsequent mechanization
increased productivity and reduced prices.54
120. Professor Christian Dustmann pointed out that “there is evidence that
technology adjusts to the availability of labour in particular parts of the skill
distribution” (Q 175). He gave the example of “the wine industry in
Australia and California, which is highly labour intensive in California and
highly mechanised in Australia, the reason being that it is very easy to get
unskilled workers in California but not in Australia” (Q 175).
121. Mr Ratcliffe of the Construction Confederation suggested that off-shoring
certain types of production, or importing certain products, is possible in the
construction industry but critically depends on the cost incentives that
employers are confronted with: “... [offshoring] is quite feasible but it is a
question of economics as to whether it is cheaper. Certainly in Catterick they
are doing some military accommodation up there and all the bathrooms are
simply transported in, having been made in factory, so certainly one of the
responses to skills shortages will be more off-site prefabrication; it is an idea
which is catching on quite nicely in the industry” (Q 143).
122. We recognise that many public and private enterprises currently rely
upon immigrants—from the NHS to City institutions, from the
54 Martin, P. et al (2006) Managing Labor Migration in the Twenty-first Century, Yale University Press, New
Haven, p. 126–127
THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION 39
construction industry to residential care. We do not doubt the great
value of this workforce from overseas to UK businesses and public
services. Nevertheless, the argument that sustained net immigration
is needed to fill vacancies, and that immigrants do the jobs that locals
cannot or will not do, is fundamentally flawed. It ignores the potential
alternatives to immigration for responding to labour shortages,
including the price adjustments of a competitive labour market and
the associated increase in local labour supply that can be expected to
occur in the absence of immigration. Each of the alternative ways of
responding to labour shortages involves its own economic costs and benefits.
Rather than deducing a need for immigrant labour from the existence of
vacancies in the economy, the discussion about how to respond to labour
shortages should be based on analysis of the feasibility and net benefits to the
resident population from the various alternatives including immigration.
123. Immigration encouraged as a “quick fix” in response to perceived labour and
skills shortages reduces employers’ incentives to consider and invest in
alternatives. It will also reduce domestic workers’ incentives to acquire the
training and skills necessary to do certain jobs. Consequently, immigration
designed to address short term shortages may have the unintended
consequence of creating the conditions that encourage shortages of
local workers in the longer term.
124. We recognise that there is a case for enabling employers to hire
significant numbers of highly-skilled foreign workers. But whether
this implies net immigration is an issue to which we return later.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
edited as i think i missed the point...
cor, it slows down around this thread when someone reads the report innit
cor, it slows down around this thread when someone reads the report innit
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
There's an awful lot of construction of theses based on (by their own admission) partial and/or fragmentary data, and a couple of their sources (MigrationWatch, ffs!) stink to high heaven.
It was interesting to note that the govt's preferred base document for their assumptions about the effects of immigration on employment (mentioned on p.28 of the report) was a DWP working paper, i.e. an internally-researched document, and one that used a crude measurement system to establish it's premises. It's (IMO) hardly any surprise that the "findings" echo the protestations of business.
The UK economy is not just one thing though is it? Its made up of workers competing for jobs and housing and bosses and landlords. Some of them have done a lot better out of mass migration than others. If you know what i mean.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
Scotland is 5 million people and had loads of oil, but Thatcher stole it all to pay for tax cuts for the rich. There's still enough of it left to transform a small country like Scotland, but not enough to bail out a huge country like the UK.
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