training socicial mobility and education and the lack of also have a lot to answer for personally i think it is funny how these are over looked but then the left havae a lot to answer for with regards to education anyway
Immigration "small benefit" to UK
- Thread starter Dhimmi
- Start date
yawn indeed .. has it ever occured to you that much of the issues in society do not have ONE signle cause but multiple ones? and that you can be against the finance industry and selling of social housing AND be against the use and abuse of immigration?
sweden also has a regulated labour market with the state and unions ..
with the consequence of lower immigration ...
AND MUCH HIGHER STANDARDS OF LIVING, WAGES ETC FOR MIGRANTS
people here defend a system that gives migrants shite wages and shite conditions .. look at what sweden does ..
p.s. posted link on this last year with minimal comment not surprisingly
I agree. I find it interesting how much hatred a lot of the left has these days for the EU's attempts to transcend nationalism (albeit in a limited way). Of course the process has not been as democratic as it should have been, but I think there's a lot of good intentions behind it, mixed in with other motives. I find it strange when people choose to completely ignore the positive sides of the EU. Where's your internationalism people?
And the main reason poorer people in the UK have suffered from this EU migration is just because the government has refused to do the rational thing and admit that, for every 100,000 new people in the country, we need housing for a 100,000 new people, hospitals for 100,000 new people etc. I think it's a bit of a shame when people to react to the government's refusal to do this by saying 'Let's stop EU migration'. Why not just force the government to ramp up service provision as migrants enter and expand the economy? This, to my mind, would be much more in the spirit of socialism and solidarity than talking about immigration limits that would ruin the world's only major attempt to move beyond nationalism.
*ducks the rotten eggs*
hey yes let the bosses import all the labour they want pay them shit and the builders make their millions building loads of boxes in the thames gate way and green belt ... that makes sense
why not suggest we have an econmony planned by tjhose who live here .. the people .. so we make waht we need etc etc
p.s. please explain the labour shortage when we have 3 million out of work
sorry disagree
- shortages in the fields?? .. is the solution low paid migrants OR looking at WHY agricultural wages are so low and why local people will not do the work
- no one on here i believe is AGIANST immigration mate .. yes immigration clearly has lots of benefits .. BUT the mass of immigration now is NOT designed to benefit 'the country' or 'the people' BUT simply the rich ..
the sooner we can use the word immigration without the left shitting themsleves the better then we can propose real solutions to benefit all ORDINARY people, those here now and new migrants, not the parasites who employ people on £2 an hour
edited as i think i missed the point...
cor, it slows down around this thread when someone reads the report innit
you are being very difficult bluey .. are yo blind?? it is surely obvious that the report has no academic or data or substance basis and was probably written by MW and Max Mosley in his dads uniform
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Heresy! You're promoting a race down to the gutter! We all know the glorious, progressive codleft future is one of mass migration on the terms of our heroic bosses - who are the NEW proletariat!
I'll second that question, too. Come on, lets have an answer! How can we have a labour shortage with 3 million (MORE if you take into account the crap way they assemble the stats) out of work?
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
It's actually more like 1.6 Million according to national statistics
And the reason there is a labour shortage is because there are not enough people from the UK willing to do the job for the minimum wages paid. Fair enough.
So, if there ARE people willing to do the job from other states then I've no problem with that. They are obviously happy with the pay or else they wouldn't be coming here and doing the jobs.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
And according to that report (which i stopped reading at page 41 but will continue with later on) vacancies empty has remained fairly staticly around the 600,000 mark since 2000.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Anyway, basically my reading of the report so far has told me that the media are reporting this as a victory for the anti-immigration types when it's clearly nothing of the sort. It's a defeat for both sides, the report shows that immigration is neither a cure for, nor a cause of, social ill. It has good and bad effects, but neither are majorly significant to teh country as a whole.
This reinforces my opinion that immigration is a smokescreen used to divide the population, and reinforce the strength of the bosses.
This reinforces my opinion that immigration is a smokescreen used to divide the population, and reinforce the strength of the bosses.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
So, bollocks to the notion of demanding an increased minimum wage then? We should just allow the bosses off the hook and let them hire cheap foreign labour instead?
1.6 Million Yeah right....I think its more like 8 Million unemployed or underemployed.........
So you think that if somebody is willing to work for low pay then its perfectly OK? Do you think that Child Labour is OK? As long as the kid in Indonesia is willing to work for 50p a day that is perfectly OK with you?
Partly agree with you it is used by the bosses. But it also has some very nasty effects on lower paid people in the UK and on poorer countries who lose the workers they most need.
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
No, not at all. And it's not the bosses controlling minimum wage, its the government. And we're all perfectly within rights to lobby for an increase. Actually, minimum wage will rise in six months - the prime minister announces last month.
The bosses hiring 'cheap foreign labour' is absolutely fine of course, so long as it's legal and from within the EU. However I don't agree that the labour is any cheaper as they would be paid exactly the same wages as a UK citizen. They are just more willing to work for minimum wage here it would seem.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
That's allright then.
Don't you see how it undermines efforts to get better pay?
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
Dispute the figures all you like... these are publicly available documents available for scrutinisation by every political party in the land. I seriously doubt they would get it wrong by as much as 8 Million unemployed.
Define low pay?! If you mean minimum wage then yes I do actually.
No I don't condone child labour. And I never suggested anything of the sort as it is illegal and wrong.
Dispute the figures all you like... these are publicly available documents available for scrutinisation by every political party in the land. I seriously doubt they would get it wrong by as much as 8 Million unemployed.
Define low pay?! If you mean minimum wage then yes I do actually.
No I don't condone child labour. And I never suggested anything of the sort as it is illegal and wrong.
1 Then you seriously need to think things through a bit. How many people do you think are on IB? How many NEETS? How many on JSA? How many on MIG and working tax credits topping up part time wages?
2 So your not against Child Labour but my point is that OK people from Poland may want to work in Mcdonalds for £6 an hour but that doesnt mean its OK does it?
Economic migration has some truly awful effects.
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
That's allright then.
Don't you see how it undermines efforts to get better pay?
Why would it undermine efforts to get better pay? Your argument is that 'cheap labour' from abroad makes it harder to justify a minimum wage rise right?
Yet, not only are the government increasing minimum wage, and not only is there evidence that many people are leaving the UK to return back to their homeland but UK unemployment has actually fallen at the same time.
So no, sorry I don't agree.
audiotech
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Heresy! You're promoting a race down to the gutter! We all know the glorious, progressive codleft future is one of mass migration on the terms of our heroic bosses - who are the NEW proletariat!
I'll second that question, too. Come on, lets have an answer! How can we have a labour shortage with 3 million (MORE if you take into account the crap way they assemble the stats) out of work?
Putting forward reactionary, petty nationalism (British jobs for British workers) is the gutter, as is forcing into work the sick, disabled and older workers, which is what you're suggesting should be done to solve the apparent labour shortages, whilst at the same time promoting anti-immigrant sentiments.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
I couldn't account for everyone on every scheme - I'm sure National Statistics documents them seperately somewhere. But Im talking about registered unemployed - not NEET people or MIG workers because that is not unemployment per se and it would be misrepresentative to include those figures.
Why isn't it ok? I know McDonalds is crap and a relatively a low paid job, but I've worked in a lot worse places for a lot less when I had to. I don't see the problem.
rubbish mate .. you do not question WHY people do not want McJobs???? that is why immigration is so cruel .. it allows the bosses to keep on exploiting while millionsof people here ( balck and white) have NO future ..
SPOT ON.
see that progrm on greedy rich.?
hi mate .. hope you good
look we been over this before BUT
the same rich you / I / we all condemn IS the rich who are BEHIND immigration .. the processes are inexorably conected .. you can not talk of the greedy rich WITHOUT mentionning immigration, how they use immigration ..
no on no one no one on these threads in ANY way blames migrants for these issues .. BUT they simply point out the ROLE immigration plays WITHIN neo liberalism ..
we MUST be open and honest about this otherwise the vast maj of people in this country will think we are fools
i think you are looking too narrowly .. look at just these sections below ..
i argued 2 years ago that immigration is a form of thatcherism .. it is .. it creates growth by cutting employers costs .. so for 'the country' immigration is NOT bad .. but i do NOT support 'the country' .. i believe in working class power .. the report is NOT interested and does not comment on it's role in this
the report does NOT say that immigration is and has been used to 1) destroy unions 2) destroy communities 3) divide the w/c
THAT and not its affect on GDP GNP etc is why it's use by the bosses is BAD
note particulalry the comments from Dr Anderson .. immigration is the bosses safety valve .. without it capitalism could NOT currently fucntion in Britain .. we rely on cheap labour for our food or shops and health service .. tbh that is a DISGRACE .. we should be ashamed ..
"112. The NFU said that wages in agriculture are significantly lower than in other sectors and that “migrants perform tasks, at rates of pay, which most
domestic workers would be unwilling to work at” (p 100). This last comment
illustrates a key issue, namely, that employers’ expressed “need” for
immigrant labour is often a demand for labour that can be employed at
current rates of pay, rather than at higher wages that are generally necessary to attract labour in a competitive market.
113. Immigration keeps labour costs lower than they would be without
immigrants. These lower labour costs also benefit consumers, who
then pay less than they otherwise would for products and services
(including public services) produced or provided by immigrants.
114. A number of witnesses argued that raising wages for workers employed to provide services in or for the public sector is severely limited by cost
pressures in the public sector. Lesley Rimmer of the UK Home Care
Association told us that “two thirds of employers say it is difficult or
impossible to recruit locally at current rates of pay and these pay rates are
primarily a reflection of what councils are willing to pay since they make up
80% of the purchasers of care services” (Q 300). Dr Anderson argued that increasing wages to attract local workers would require a reform of the UK’s social care system. “If there were no immigration, there really would have to be a big re-think about how social care and care of the elderly was organized; really big, back-to-first premises” (Q 30)."
audiotech
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Hold the front page: there is immigration!
Doesn't stop there being a re-think about social care and how the care of the elderly is organised though does it?
Dr Anderson's point about increasing wages and this requiring a reform of the UK’s social care system is absolute bunkem.
All it needs is employers, the biggest being local authorites of course, funded by the Treasury, paying a justified rate for the job.
Instead, we have cuts in such services and a wage freeze that has nothing at all to do with immigrants/migrants and everything to do with Brown's pay policy.
yes indeed IN THE FRAME WORK OF THE BOSSES THOUGH SHE IS RIGHT .. no immigrants = cuts in services
so a health sevice is
1) cheap labour based as now
2) cut to shreads ( dr anderson )
or 3 ) based on tax the rich and pay workers properly
which one do you support?
p.s. are you not ashamed to live in a country that relies so heavily on foreign cheap labour? and not argue against that sytem??
audiotech
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'Pay workers properly'? I take it you mean having a taxation system that's progressive? Why do you ask such questions, when you know what the answer is going to be ffs?
Ashamed? Dear me, another highbrow question to ponder.
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